Impact of Generals Book and other AoS based questions....

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Impact of Generals Book and other AoS based questions....

Postby Bugman » Wed Jul 27, 2016 11:56 am

Good Afternoon,

Now, I am not a huge fan of AoS coming from WHFB but since people have been asking me questions it's only fair I find out and see if my original reasons still stand

So please, if you don't mind:

1) How is the generals book going down in your area? Does it help much with any imbalances?

2) so everything is on a round base, boo, but in my few games as a tester everything just ended up as a complete rumble in the centre with tactics all but going out the window, so how is it now playing? Something similar still or has it become more refined?

Thanks in advance

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Re: Impact of Generals Book and other AoS based questions....

Postby Daedalus81 » Wed Jul 27, 2016 7:41 pm

Wonderfully - I've got 5 people back on board already. The points are part of the picture. The scenarios being the other. People didn't like how the game was a scrum in the middle. Proper scenarios keep this from being the case.

The book is cheap and you can even download it for $16 if you want to check out the guts of it.

Dwarfs are also due out this September, presumably.

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Re: Impact of Generals Book and other AoS based questions....

Postby Bugman » Wed Jul 27, 2016 11:56 pm

Thanks

Okay question, in the new rules say for instance plague bearers, 100 points, min 10, max 30

How are you suppose to work out how much each costs? Eg unit of 15?

Any decent AOS boards out there?

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Re: Impact of Generals Book and other AoS based questions....

Postby Daedalus81 » Thu Jul 28, 2016 2:57 am

If you want 15 you have to pay for 20 - part of the balancing mechanics, but something easily house ruled if you wanted to.

There's a thriving group over at TGA:
http://www.tga.community/forums/forum/2 ... scussions/

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Re: Impact of Generals Book and other AoS based questions....

Postby Bugman » Thu Jul 28, 2016 6:31 am

Daedalus81 wrote:If you want 15 you have to pay for 20 - part of the balancing mechanics, but something easily house ruled if you wanted to.

There's a thriving group over at TGA:
http://www.tga.community/forums/forum/2 ... scussions/


Could you point me in the direction of where that's noted in the book, appreciate it could be house ruled

Thanks, off to look at the link

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Re: Impact of Generals Book and other AoS based questions....

Postby Screwface » Thu Jul 28, 2016 7:06 am

It's noted on page 107, in the box headed "under-strength units".

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Re: Impact of Generals Book and other AoS based questions....

Postby amysrevenge » Thu Jul 28, 2016 5:49 pm

Bugman wrote:Good Afternoon,
1) How is the generals book going down in your area? Does it help much with any imbalances?

2) so everything is on a round base, boo, but in my few games as a tester everything just ended up as a complete rumble in the centre with tactics all but going out the window, so how is it now playing? Something similar still or has it become more refined?


1) Very well received. We didn't really have any imbalances that needed help, since we embraced community-driven comp early on.

2) We started playing correctly (with objective-based battleplans, and actually using movement options such as retreating)) very early on - so no problems with clusters in the middle in recent memory. The GH matched play objective-based battleplans formalize/standardize this. At the very worst, you'll have multiple clusters around the objectives.
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Re: Impact of Generals Book and other AoS based questions....

Postby Bugman » Thu Jul 28, 2016 10:23 pm

Thank you guys!
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Re: Impact of Generals Book and other AoS based questions....

Postby Sleboda » Fri Jul 29, 2016 3:08 am

It looks like you have your answers, Bugman, but I did want to echo amysrevenge a bit -

I was put off by many things in AoS, like lots of long-time players, but I was sort of fortunate enough I guess to recognize that the long-timeness was probably the issue. It was why I resisted round bases, the loss of the old fluff, the change from blocks and complex army list building, point values and so on.

Very quickly I opted to see AoS as its own thing and caught myself everytime I began I thought with something like "I didn't use to..." or "Where did X go?" When I looked at AoS on its own and stopped applying Warhammer thinking to it, I totally found it to be great. There really are tactics, just not Warhammer tactics. There really is complexity, just not Warhammer complexity. There really are cool models, cools stories, cool modes of play, cool... all of it, just not in the same way as Warhammer.

So, like for amysrevenge, I never ran into questions of imbalances or center clusters. My games played out The Way That God Intended (so to speak) and they were a blast.

Now that the GH is out, I simply have other neat ways to play AoS, not ways to make it more like Warhammer.

I hope that helps.
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Re: Impact of Generals Book and other AoS based questions....

Postby Nibbles » Fri Jul 29, 2016 11:18 pm

Sleboda wrote:It looks like you have your answers, Bugman, but I did want to echo amysrevenge a bit -

I was put off by many things in AoS, like lots of long-time players, but I was sort of fortunate enough I guess to recognize that the long-timeness was probably the issue. It was why I resisted round bases, the loss of the old fluff, the change from blocks and complex army list building, point values and so on.

Very quickly I opted to see AoS as its own thing and caught myself everytime I began I thought with something like "I didn't use to..." or "Where did X go?" When I looked at AoS on its own and stopped applying Warhammer thinking to it, I totally found it to be great. There really are tactics, just not Warhammer tactics. There really is complexity, just not Warhammer complexity. There really are cool models, cools stories, cool modes of play, cool... all of it, just not in the same way as Warhammer.

So, like for amysrevenge, I never ran into questions of imbalances or center clusters. My games played out The Way That God Intended (so to speak) and they were a blast.

Now that the GH is out, I simply have other neat ways to play AoS, not ways to make it more like Warhammer.

I hope that helps.


I agree with the notion that the points are not a nudge towards the Warhammer of old, but merely a tool which helps to balance the armies as it takes some of the work off the shoulders of the players. I don't miss the full complexity of Warhammer either, I recently even bought Battle Masters from Ebay. :)
I do respect your opinions even when I do not state so, we are all free to disagree and agree here. And I certainly do not assume that my ideas about the rules would be the only proper ones. We all have our own ways for playing these games and that is fine.

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Re: Impact of Generals Book and other AoS based questions....

Postby AoS-King » Sat Jul 30, 2016 1:50 pm

Age of Sigmar is really starting to take off. The combination of the Sylvaneth release and the General's handbook has kick-started it really hard. In my local area people are absolutely loving the game now there is a point system.

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Re: Impact of Generals Book and other AoS based questions....

Postby Bugman » Sat Jul 30, 2016 6:49 pm

Thanks Slebola, I think your correct, you mustn't look at it as warhammer but a game in its own right.

How does the lack of square bases and ranked troops go though? I do miss those and not sure I want to rebase all my armies even if I have to admit round bases do look so much cooler

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Re: Impact of Generals Book and other AoS based questions....

Postby Nibbles » Sun Jul 31, 2016 12:41 pm

Bugman wrote:Thanks Slebola, I think your correct, you mustn't look at it as warhammer but a game in its own right.

How does the lack of square bases and ranked troops go though? I do miss those and not sure I want to rebase all my armies even if I have to admit round bases do look so much cooler

Bugman


I did not want to rebase my armies either and wanted to play with ranked blocks, so went for KoW. As Sleboda put it, AoS is a different game so I might as well play a different game that lets me use my old armies as they are. AoS is okay as a small scale skirmish game, it is not really a good system for grand scale battles between armies.
I do respect your opinions even when I do not state so, we are all free to disagree and agree here. And I certainly do not assume that my ideas about the rules would be the only proper ones. We all have our own ways for playing these games and that is fine.

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Re: Impact of Generals Book and other AoS based questions....

Postby Screwface » Sun Jul 31, 2016 3:10 pm

Nibbles wrote:AoS is okay as a small scale skirmish game, it is not really a good system for grand scale battles between armies.


Just out of curiosity, is this opinion based on theory or practice?

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Re: Impact of Generals Book and other AoS based questions....

Postby jamopower » Sun Jul 31, 2016 4:08 pm

I would say it's better with larger than skirmish forces. Haven't been able to play too many games, as the game doesn't have too much popularity in Finland, but with armies in the size of around 1000 old points it was much more fun than with small forces of few units. With the General's Handbook I'll expect the game gain much more popularity here as well. The books have sold well in FLGS and there are even some tournaments starting to be held.

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Re: Impact of Generals Book and other AoS based questions....

Postby Screwface » Sun Jul 31, 2016 4:16 pm

jamopower wrote:I would say it's better with larger than skirmish forces. Haven't been able to play too many games, as the game doesn't have too much popularity in Finland, but with armies in the size of around 1000 old points it was much more fun than with small forces of few units. With the General's Handbook I'll expect the game gain much more popularity here as well. The books have sold well in FLGS and there are even some tournaments starting to be held.


Agreed. In my opinion the game is much more entertaining at larger points levels. In my experience (50+ games) the game has worked wonderfully with large armies.

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Re: Impact of Generals Book and other AoS based questions....

Postby amysrevenge » Sun Jul 31, 2016 8:52 pm

Yeah it works really really well for grand scale battles. Dozens of tournaments with hundreds of players around the world makes it demonstrably true.

Someone could argue that the unmodified 4-pager game with no Battleplans and no Times of War and no house rules (force org, bases, etc.) doesn't work for grand scale battles, but that is a silly argument.
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Re: Impact of Generals Book and other AoS based questions....

Postby Sleboda » Mon Aug 01, 2016 4:06 pm

@Bugman
Simple. Don't re-base! AoS doesn't care about bases, so you can play with your rectangles. You can even still play in ranks and on movement trays.

I do.

I also am enjoying building new forces on round bases. I never thought I'd say this, but round just looks better.
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Re: Impact of Generals Book and other AoS based questions....

Postby Nibbles » Tue Aug 02, 2016 1:15 am

The number of points is not an exact indicator for what's a skirmish battle and what's a grand scale battle. In some games you could have five or ten thousand points and that would be just a skirmish... I stand by my opinion that AoS is not a great system for grand scale battles, and with those I mean battles with a 100-200 or even more miniatures. WHFB did this a lot better, so do plenty of other games.
I do respect your opinions even when I do not state so, we are all free to disagree and agree here. And I certainly do not assume that my ideas about the rules would be the only proper ones. We all have our own ways for playing these games and that is fine.

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Re: Impact of Generals Book and other AoS based questions....

Postby The Nick » Tue Aug 02, 2016 3:15 am

I never really liked the every game develops into a smash in the middle argument, mostly because that's more a testimony to the level of players you're with than any set of rules. Case in point: I've played plenty of 8th edition games (dozens) where the other player or players I was watching simply pushed everything forward and tried to smash their netlist power-armies into the other side and simply roll over their opponent.By the logic presented here, that suggests 8th edition was a thoughtless game rather than I simply happened to be paired up against or watch thoughtless players.

On the other topic, AoS definitely feels more like a Skirmish game. There's more an emphasis on each individual model rather than the unit. In ranked file games, you're thinking of each unit as the tactical level of importance, whereas with the skirmishy games, each individual model might not be important but you're definitely thinking closer to the individual model than the individual unit.

On the other hand, if you like massed battle systems, you can convert AoS to a ranky-and-filey game with two paragraphs of changes, but it's really trying to hit a sweet spot a bit lower in model count than that. But it still "works" at higher levels.
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Re: Impact of Generals Book and other AoS based questions....

Postby Screwface » Tue Aug 02, 2016 7:26 am

Nibbles wrote: I stand by my opinion that AoS is not a great system for grand scale battles, and with those I mean battles.


Yeah I get that this is what you think, I'm just curious as to why you think it. What combination of theory and/or experience led you to hold this opinion?

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Re: Impact of Generals Book and other AoS based questions....

Postby dafruk » Tue Aug 02, 2016 7:42 am

Screwface wrote:
Nibbles wrote: I stand by my opinion that AoS is not a great system for grand scale battles, and with those I mean battles.


Yeah I get that this is what you think, I'm just curious as to why you think it. What combination of theory and/or experience led you to hold this opinion?

It's a ball-ache to move 100s of individual models is the only thing I ca think of, or there is the more historical nature of warfare being ranked up units until about 150 years ago flavouring how everyone views battle warfare.

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Re: Impact of Generals Book and other AoS based questions....

Postby Screwface » Tue Aug 02, 2016 8:51 am

dafruk wrote:
Screwface wrote:
Nibbles wrote: I stand by my opinion that AoS is not a great system for grand scale battles, and with those I mean battles.


Yeah I get that this is what you think, I'm just curious as to why you think it. What combination of theory and/or experience led you to hold this opinion?

It's a ball-ache to move 100s of individual models is the only thing I ca think of, or there is the more historical nature of warfare being ranked up units until about 150 years ago flavouring how everyone views battle warfare.


Absolutely, and if that was your definition of "works well", then perhaps AoS would fall short. It's not my definition, which is why for me, AoS works great with 100s of models. So are we just talking about personal tastes here?

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Re: Impact of Generals Book and other AoS based questions....

Postby jamopower » Tue Aug 02, 2016 8:56 am

There is absolutely nothing stopping you from moving your units in a movement tray. It might even have some benefits every now and then. It's only in battles when the formations break to form a battleline, which I think is actually quite cool and thematic. The rules per se don't have too much stuff concentrating on individual models in the units (like for example the wound allocation in 40k).

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Re: Impact of Generals Book and other AoS based questions....

Postby Screwface » Tue Aug 02, 2016 9:09 am

Yeah it's interesting that despite regularly playing games with 100+ models on the table, I don't notice the movement phase in AoS being that much longer than it was in 8th.

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Re: Impact of Generals Book and other AoS based questions....

Postby HunterB » Tue Aug 02, 2016 11:46 am

I have played some fairly large model count games (not massive ones) and the movement was never an issue.
I prefer it now as it is a lot more straight forward rather than changing formations and wheeling/snaking what ever to try and get past terrain features you just, know walk past it!

It is really no different to 40k movement, and I have played infantry guard in an apoc game, now that is a lot of models to move!

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Re: Impact of Generals Book and other AoS based questions....

Postby jamopower » Tue Aug 02, 2016 3:30 pm

To be honest, for proper "Massive armies" of hundreds of models, WHFB is also really clunky game system. Works until the first combat, if you Don't manouver too much, after that the units start blocking each other and teleport around the table wildly as they fail their panic checks.

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Re: Impact of Generals Book and other AoS based questions....

Postby dragonelf » Tue Aug 02, 2016 9:25 pm

To answer the original poster.

I haven't played AOS since the first test games when it came out. All my gaming group dropped it and moved into 40k. My local GW almost never had AOS game going because no one wanted to play it.

I prefer the fantasy setting so have kept my eye on AOS but never wanted to spend a penny of my money on it because it still looked incomplete to me and because no one in my group wanted to play it.

Now, with the GH, sylvaneth and beastclaw releases, I can't wait to buy some AOS models.
Our local GW plays pretty much nothing else but AOS due to popularity and my friends are looking back at it and we are having an AOS gaming weekend later this month.

The release of the GH seems to have transformed the game for us and others. I guess many players need structure.

I really hope GW continue to build on this and continue to develop and advance the storyline and most importantly the depth of the game and I am sure it will continue on an upward trend. It isn't by any means perfect, but the release of GH seems to have been a game changer, literally.

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Re: Impact of Generals Book and other AoS based questions....

Postby Nibbles » Thu Aug 04, 2016 7:41 pm

jamopower wrote:To be honest, for proper "Massive armies" of hundreds of models, WHFB is also really clunky game system. Works until the first combat, if you Don't manouver too much, after that the units start blocking each other and teleport around the table wildly as they fail their panic checks.


Absolutely agree on that, yeah. I never said 8th was the perfect system for grand scale battles, it just did that better than AoS. From my experience KoW does this the best, though I'm sure there are systems out there which do this even better. Warmaster was probably one of these, unfortunately I never took the plunge into that while it would have been possible to do so.

The Nick wrote:
AoS definitely feels more like a Skirmish game. There's more an emphasis on each individual model rather than the unit. In ranked file games, you're thinking of each unit as the tactical level of importance, whereas with the skirmishy games, each individual model might not be important but you're definitely thinking closer to the individual model than the individual unit.

On the other hand, if you like massed battle systems, you can convert AoS to a ranky-and-filey game with two paragraphs of changes, but it's really trying to hit a sweet spot a bit lower in model count than that. But it still "works" at higher levels.


Indeed, AoS is a skirmish game at its core, no doubt about that. It can be bent for epic scale battles without snapping in half, much like 8th could be bent for skirmish(Wood Elves being the best example) but this was never the strong point of the game. 8th had the least rules supporting skirmish play out of all the editions I played in, just like AoS has the least rules supporting ranked formations & grand scale battles. Both games work best when played according to their nature, and not so well when going against it. That of course doesn't stop people from doing so anyways and enjoying the experience, we all have tastes for a wide variety of things as aptly evidenced by this discussion. :)
I do respect your opinions even when I do not state so, we are all free to disagree and agree here. And I certainly do not assume that my ideas about the rules would be the only proper ones. We all have our own ways for playing these games and that is fine.

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Re: Impact of Generals Book and other AoS based questions....

Postby Nibbles » Thu Aug 04, 2016 7:53 pm

dragonelf wrote:To answer the original poster.

I haven't played AOS since the first test games when it came out. All my gaming group dropped it and moved into 40k. My local GW almost never had AOS game going because no one wanted to play it.

I prefer the fantasy setting so have kept my eye on AOS but never wanted to spend a penny of my money on it because it still looked incomplete to me and because no one in my group wanted to play it.

Now, with the GH, sylvaneth and beastclaw releases, I can't wait to buy some AOS models.
Our local GW plays pretty much nothing else but AOS due to popularity and my friends are looking back at it and we are having an AOS gaming weekend later this month.

The release of the GH seems to have transformed the game for us and others. I guess many players need structure.

I really hope GW continue to build on this and continue to develop and advance the storyline and most importantly the depth of the game and I am sure it will continue on an upward trend. It isn't by any means perfect, but the release of GH seems to have been a game changer, literally.


Yeah, a more clear structure does indeed make the game more accessible than leaving all of it up to the players. GH would only complicate things for the very youngest of players who would not understand the calculations & additional rules, though this group would not likely understand much of the four pages of basic rules of the game either. GH leaves the basic game a viable option too, which is very nice for those who prefer the open approach. They've definitely made the game more appealing to a broader audience now and I hope it continues to grow in popularity!
I do respect your opinions even when I do not state so, we are all free to disagree and agree here. And I certainly do not assume that my ideas about the rules would be the only proper ones. We all have our own ways for playing these games and that is fine.


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