The ninth age

Platform for development and feedback of the ninth age project

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Logan054
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Re: The ninth age

Postby Logan054 » Thu Jul 02, 2015 3:15 pm

arthain wrote:Don't be fooled, a magic level doesn't cost 35pt. When you buy a lvl1 or lv3 you are paying much more than 35 per level. Yes, even-numbered levels are priced at 35pt. That's the reason why you almost never see a lv3.


The ability to use magic is 35pts, this isn't something that can be debated, the other points are for the stats that keep him alive, bar his actual stat line, all of these additional increases are optional. Please do not go down this route of trying to say magic users are properly priced, they are not. It's hardly as if magic users went up in price with 8th ed! The magic system has changed a lot since 6th ed and we are still using the same pricing system.

Purple sun is imbalanced in a sense that it cripples some armies while barely scratching others, as I already acknowledged. This is coupled with a poorly though-out Lore attribute. However on a general look, PS is not OP, when you consider how crap it is against certain other armies. It is just Rock-Paper-Scissors. Nurgle Vortex, Black Magic Vortex, Final Transmu, Dwellers, Bad Moon... Those are much more stable against all armies. This spells counter the big units play style while being very inefficient against MSU. The presence of this spells balances list design to a point where the units are not big enough to suffer too much from one of this spells, but not small enough to not being useful (something around 25-50 models depending on the unit)


I know how crap it is against my WoC, i still acknowledge that it can pretty much ruin a gaming experience for someone. I know on the few occasion's I have ran my Dark Elfs with lore of death its not been an enjoyable experience for either person. In reality, these spells don't balance list design, all they really do is contribute to the rock, paper scissors of warhammer. At the end of the day, not everyone uses death, at tournament you might encounter it twice, if you happen to come across it and your using a low I value then just grin and bear it (which seems the more common thing). Then of course, unless you have every wizard on death, you can't guarantee you'll even roll it, so again, it isn't actually a good counter. Its just one of those great ones that will turn certain games very one sided and be useless in others. It's pretty much the same with all most of the number 6 spells.

If you think a player is getting more VPs than what he's losing when he IFs (which encourages going for the IF), that's probably because you are giving him a chubby target.


An old boss of mine once said, assumptions are the mother of all erk ups, its very appropriate now.

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Re: The ninth age

Postby Dyvim Tvar » Thu Jul 02, 2015 3:18 pm

arthain wrote:Also maybe we should consider split this thread in two things: legal vs gaming? It feels weird having this two parallel conversations ;) I have MOD powers, so I can split the thread (just saying)


The legal conversation is over I think.

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Re: The ninth age

Postby arthain » Thu Jul 02, 2015 3:57 pm

Logan054 wrote:It's pretty much the same with all most of the number 6 spells.

I must completely disagree. As I repeteadly stated, the other 6 spells are nowhere near PS/Dwellers. Nurgle vortex is balanced against most armies as T3/T4 is a streamline. Same goes for Black Horror. They are both very efficient against high concentration of points/surface, and very little against the opposite (MSU "catch me if you can"), regardless of which Race are you fighting, and therefore have an impact on list design. On the other hand Magic Missiles the like of Fireball/Soul Quench are much better in the latter situation (WE avoidance, Skink cloud, DE avoidance... that kind of thing)

If you think a player is getting more VPs than what he's losing when he IFs (which encourages going for the IF), that's probably because you are giving him a chubby target.


An old boss of mine once said, assumptions are the mother of all erk ups, its very appropriate now.


You can't really fight maths. When going against MSU armies like the ones mentioned above, it is not a very smart idea to look for a IF when casting a test-or-die spell, since whatever you kill will be most probably worth less than your wizard (Not to mention cost of opportunity as it means 1 whole magic phase spent on 1 spell instead of casting 3 Fireball-like spells which will deal much more damage). With the exception of Dwellers vs enemy S3 Lv4 (One single spell in one single occasion). In that single specific context, try to IF all the way since the rewards are far greater than the risks.
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Re: The ninth age

Postby Sir Robert » Thu Jul 02, 2015 4:08 pm

Overall I think the magic system would benefit from being a lot less random. Tamp down on the extremes of under-performance and over-performance and make it much more reliable and easier to account for.
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Re: The ninth age

Postby Logan054 » Thu Jul 02, 2015 4:18 pm

arthain wrote:I must completely disagree. As I repeteadly stated, the other 6 spells are nowhere near PS/Dwellers.


It doesn't matter if they are, those spells are a problem, they are spells that people are talking about when they talk about number 6 spells. You can tell those are spells being talked about when they talk about instant death. Frankly, I don't think anyone has any issues with the weaker number 6 spells. I guess, people feel the spells that create issues should be brought in line with the other lores so each lore is more equal. Currently, they are not.

You can't really fight maths.


:shock: I think what I said has gone completely over your head 8-[

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Re: The ninth age

Postby arthain » Thu Jul 02, 2015 10:24 pm

Logan054 wrote:It doesn't matter if they are, those spells are a problem, they are spells that people are talking about when they talk about number 6 spells. You can tell those are spells being talked about when they talk about instant death. Frankly, I don't think anyone has any issues with the weaker number 6 spells. I guess, people feel the spells that create issues should be brought in line with the other lores so each lore is more equal. Currently, they are not.

I agree those two spells need a fix. But people often generalize and refer to "test-or-die spells" when they in fact refer to only 2 spells out of the ~6 test-or-die spells that exist in the game. And even then, the fault of those spells, is not the fact that they are test-or-die, it is some other detail of the spell's mechanism, what makes people complain about this spells. The fact that test-or-die spells exists is not a problematic thing, as Black Horror and Nurgle Vortex prove, being non-broken test-or-die spells (On the other hand, while not being broken, are not bad spells either). The fact that Dwellers can reliablyly insta-kill enemy S3 Lv4 on T1 and Sun can erase certain armies and fuel a 12-PD magic phase on top of that, is what makes people complain about "#6 spells".

You can't really fight maths.

:shock: I think what I said has gone completely over your head 8-[

I might have misunderstood you, I am sorry. Did you disagree with my statement that if a opponent is looking for a IF-casting of a spell, it is because the target is juicy enough for him to be willing to risk losing his lv4 (Risk/reward balance), and this could have been usually* minimized if the opponent wouldn't have presented such a juicy target?
Exception granted on Dwellers vs Lv4 (you can't forego a Lv4) and Sun vs Low-I (If you play ogres you shouldn't have to trash them and start a new army because of a badly though-out spell)
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Re: The ninth age

Postby hragged » Thu Jul 02, 2015 10:56 pm

Hi guys, I'm happy to help promote The Ninth Age over on the Stronghold if you like, and if there's a rules team assembled they're welcome to come over and promote it there too.

I think getting the various online Warhammer communities involved could be a big help in getting a community edition off the ground and played on a wider scale, plus the more people playtesting your rules the better!

I'm also willing to speak to other admins to help you reach more communities, if you wish.

Cheers!

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Re: The ninth age

Postby Bugman » Fri Jul 03, 2015 7:44 am

hragged wrote:Hi guys, I'm happy to help promote The Ninth Age over on the Stronghold if you like, and if there's a rules team assembled they're welcome to come over and promote it there too.

I think getting the various online Warhammer communities involved could be a big help in getting a community edition off the ground and played on a wider scale, plus the more people playtesting your rules the better!

I'm also willing to speak to other admins to help you reach more communities, if you wish.

Cheers!


I am with Hragged with this. Several communities have already been in touch and are willing to support where we can

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Re: The ninth age

Postby Priest 3 » Fri Jul 03, 2015 9:30 pm

This is a great idea and due to your name recognition with Swedish comp it could absolutely work.

I would love to see a better worked version of 6th-7th ed but am aware that most people in Aus love 8th so I just want workable rules for my armies.

Massive good luck and anything we can do to help just ask. Australia has a great scene atm and I can't see Aos taking off so this is a godsend!

Also I'm sure Wargamerau will be happy to put up a sub forum for the 9th age once it's complete and promote it.

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Re: The ninth age

Postby fjugin » Sat Jul 04, 2015 10:06 am

Official webpage


Small update

Work on "the ninth age" (suggestions for better name?) is ongoing as we speak. Basically it will be an updated version of 8th warhammer. Pretty much like how 7th edition was an updated version of 6th.

Personally I believe the best chance of saving the type warhammer we love is community driven rulebook and armybooks. If done right, such project could give us precisely what we have always wished for GW to be (writing competitive game, balance updates, writers that are in touch with the community etc).

If such project is to have any chance of success, we need a large player base, thus we want to maximise the number of people transiting to this. We therefore strive to create a version of warhammer that is close enough to 8th for people to still see it as warhammer and be able to pick it up and try it out without too much rules reading beforehand. But we still want to add some new stuff, both to create something to get people exited about trying it out, but also for improving the game.

So,
1. Rewriting rules for broken parts of the game, keeping the parts that works and changing the parts that do not
2. Small updates to rules with minor issues
3. New lores (keep some spells, around 30-40% new spells for each lore, updates to attributes, casting values etc where needed)
4. New magic items (both common and race specific, again keep some, add some new stuff)
5. New points costs for very strong/weak units (maybe rules changes in a few cases)
6. Possibly add new unit entries to match new models released for AoS.

Eventually we want to have an international committee, with representation from various communities, for deciding on all updates, rules changes, maybe even create new armybooks. Creating such committee would take time however (especially with most community representatives preparing for ETC at the moment), and releasing this soon seem important if we are to not lose to many players. On top of this, larger groups tend to work slower, so again creating a committee at this time is not optimal. We therefore intend to get the ball rolling and ASAP publish an alpha-version including points 1, 3, 4, 5. Point 2 will be mostly ignored in early versions in order to make the transition from 8th easier. For point 5, only points changes to the most imbalanced units will be changed in first version.

Goal is to get this out before ETC (beginning of August), with a few sneak-peak pre-releases of some stuff during the next few weeks to get some hype going and show that works being done. If alpha-version is received well, we can then start to gather a committee and with this create a beta version based on feedback on the alpha version.

/Erik
Last edited by fjugin on Tue Jul 07, 2015 1:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The ninth age

Postby kylek2235 » Sat Jul 04, 2015 4:09 pm

Part of the appeal for Warhammer to the world outside the tournament base was the world itself. It was one of the feeders into the tournament scene. Following GW's direction is a fail. If there's anything I can do to help with this, let me know.

As to adding new GW models to the game, Why? Different aesthetic and different scale. That and the GW modeling range is going to be phased out in levels based on sales. Better off saying "Hey I think Ogres need an Ogre King for their army, what modeling range makes a suitable model?" or treat it as an advertisement in a magazine and get a modeling company to pay for the right for their model to be the guy.

Thanks for the hard work, I look forward to being able to take a rule set back to my gaming group.

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Re: The ninth age

Postby Thorek Ironbrown » Sat Jul 04, 2015 5:47 pm

Best news I've heard since the first rumours of AoS began appearing. Excellent initiative!

It might be too early to ask these questions, but have you decided anything on what to do about the coming new releases from GW? While I have faith in your ability to make a great ruleset, a great ruleset without the momentum of occasional model and fluff releases may still have a bleak future. Doesn't necessarily need to be GW releases of course, any releases would do, though I think a lot of people would prefer there to be some connection to the GW fluff still (since there seems to be a connection between the new AoS fluff and the old WH fluff).

Second question, what about the End Times? Will the stuff released during the End Times (the new characters and units primarily, not the crazy rules, in so far as the two can be separated) be included in the ninth age? I know it's not been all-around popular, but I felt the combined lists were a great idea (though poorly executed in many ways). Being able to access new and different units is a great way to keep up one's enthusiasm for the hobby (and bring back old players). If not combined lists then some sort of mercenary system would be a great addition.

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Re: The ninth age

Postby jouso » Sat Jul 04, 2015 6:16 pm

fjugin wrote:We therefore intend to get the ball rolling and ASAP publish an alpha-version including points 1-5 (probably only points changes to the most imbalanced units in this version). Goal is to get this out before ETC (beginning of August), with a few sneak-peak pre-releases of some stuff during the next few weeks to get some hype going and show that works being done. If alpha-version is received well, we can then start to gather a committee and with this create a beta version based on feedback on the alpha version.

/Erik


That's the way. Design by committee tends towards bland, half-hearted, late efforts.

I'm more of a proponent of a "benevolent dictatorship" that receives feedback, but ultimately follows their vision.

Many people have been pleased by the comp efforts so far and it would be a shame that your work had to slow down by the constraints of working by committee (an international one, no less).

I for one really like the direction you're taking.

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Re: The ninth age

Postby simonbromley121 » Sat Jul 04, 2015 9:13 pm

Best news I had all day. look forward the alpha version with interested.

Simon

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Re: The ninth age

Postby gommo » Sun Jul 05, 2015 6:56 am

Keep it up!!

To be honest, I'm a little livid that this has moved to this obscure part of the forums? Now, I'm not against AoS at all, but why does it get default place in Warhammer Fantasy forum, and the actual Warhammer fantasy stuff get's kicked out of it?
The mind boggles.

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Re: The ninth age

Postby dhettneck » Sun Jul 05, 2015 7:55 am

gommo wrote:Keep it up!!

To be honest, I'm a little livid that this has moved to this obscure part of the forums? Now, I'm not against AoS at all, but why does it get default place in Warhammer Fantasy forum, and the actual Warhammer fantasy stuff get's kicked out of it?
The mind boggles.


I agree, this should really be moved back to the relevant section. This is much more in line with the Swedish compsystem, than some of the fan made stuff that ends up here.
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Re: The ninth age

Postby small furry spider » Sun Jul 05, 2015 6:59 pm

Here are my thoughts.

I think going for an 8+ is the best option as it will keep as many players happy as possible and reduce the risk of player base fragmentation. In many ways, change as little as possible, because the more you change, the more people you upset. If you can get people involved with the project, they may be happier with a further revison next time. A good example is terrain; while true line of sight is terrible as a game mechanic, it may be best to keep it to keep more players happy, most tournament players would be happy to see it go, but most warhammer players are not tournament players.

Getting widespread feedback is also very important. You need to understand what everyone thinks of the rules, in a way GW never did, as it is not "official". That means feedback from non-tournament players and non-european players.

I think a complete rewritten rulebook would be the easiest to use (not rewritten rules), because a separate comp pack is just more hassle. If I understand things correctly, if we rewrite the same rules/concepts in our own words we avoid any copyright issues but IANAL. It is also a lot more work :(

One thing I would personally like to see in a rewrite is a proper cross referenced index, so if I look up chariot I can find all the rules, not the almost psychic current system where you have to realise it is a single model, so turning is under single model movement, not the charriot section. This is a real unneccesary barrier for new players.

I am sure lots of people would be happy to help in whatever way is useful, even if only playtesting (I co-run the club in my sig).
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Re: The ninth age

Postby Keith Rowland » Sun Jul 05, 2015 10:09 pm

Getting in on this a bit late. ....

8th edition was my favorite edition so far (started at the tail end of 4th) so I'd really like to see an real sweeping changes kept to a minimum.

For myself there are only two real issues I'd like reworked.

1. The devestating "big" spells should allow wards save as well as MR. You know the culprits, Dwellers, Sun, etc.
1a. Rework Magic Resistance so it matters again.

2. When Deamons roll on their chart when rolling for Winds of Magic change it so the effects from the chart do NOT affect the Deamons opponent. I despise that rule more than anything in the game.
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Re: The ninth age

Postby jouso » Mon Jul 06, 2015 8:34 am

Keith Rowland wrote:1. The devestating "big" spells should allow wards save as well as MR. You know the culprits, Dwellers, Sun, etc.
1a. Rework Magic Resistance so it matters again.


I've seen a cool mechanism for MR on a fan-made 8.5 in the works.

Besides the usual ward save improvement, MR gets added to the difficulty of any spell targeting the unit in question.

So it would have a (minor) effect on hexes as well.

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Re: The ninth age

Postby Anton » Mon Jul 06, 2015 8:58 am

I would be very happy to see this take off. I'm a huge fan of 8th edition and not getting anything new for it ever again makes me quite depressed.

I believe in baby steps. Just start with 8th edition with the smallest possible changes to sort out the main problems and make it a Living Rulebook. Essentially Warhammer 8.1. That should get the greatest number of people playing it. Then make regular updates 2-4 times a year. Leave the Army Books alone until you've got the ball rolling with the main rules.

There should definitely be rules for new models released for AoS. New releases keep the game fresh and if there's one thing GW still does right it's the models.

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Re: The ninth age

Postby gommo » Mon Jul 06, 2015 11:19 pm

Agree with above posters. Small set of changes and get community feedback. Rinse/repeat.

Also, bringing in AoS elements as another side project would be great. We need an evolving meta.

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Re: The ninth age

Postby MightyM00se » Mon Jul 06, 2015 11:42 pm

Greetings from The land down under.

I wish to lend my game designerness and ability to spin a yarn to the formation of the Council of 9th.

I wanted to say "YOU HAVE MY PEN!" but i feel that may have come across a bit... ANYWHO.

Started updated Bretonnians down this way to bring them into 8th/9th moving forward. Happy to put up what myself and a few of my mates have been working on to bring chivalry forward into this bold new world.

Just for the record, i am doing an FAQ style update from my locals first.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/bj5cxqb28lyui ... 9.pdf?dl=0 akin to this.

And i am willing to move to the point of a living army book for bretonnia and others. Fluff etc.

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Re: The ninth age

Postby Squigkikka » Tue Jul 07, 2015 6:48 pm

Tell us how we best can aid you. I'd definitely be up for playtesting rules and stuff.

I'm not a designer, but I think you should go for the rulebook and make changes there before touching armybooks (unless it's letting TKs march and giving Beastmen Marks, that's a good start).

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Re: The ninth age

Postby MightyM00se » Tue Jul 07, 2015 11:35 pm

I disagree, Bretonnia needs looking into straight out the gate.

I will take that mantle if need be!

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Re: The ninth age

Postby Sir Robert » Wed Jul 08, 2015 12:20 am

MightyM00se wrote:I disagree, Bretonnia needs looking into straight out the gate.

I will take that mantle if need be!


Even as a dyed-in-the-wool Bretonnian player, I still think that the core rules should be addressed first - but then by all means let's get a new army book for Bretonnia going first! :)

Actually, what I think will be more effective is if the core rulebook is rewritten and released first, followed by a Ravening-hordes style "Get You By" list is published covering all factions. Then instead of individual army books, a series of supplements that develop various sections of all the different armies at once: "Elite Infantry" "Fast Cavalry" etc etc. SO you get a release schedule that looks like this:

1) Revised Core Rules

2) Ravening Hordes style simplified army lists book.

3) "Elite Infantry" supplement developing all factions

4) "Fast Cavalry" supplement developing all factions

5) "War Machines" supplemennt developing all factions, etc etc etc etc
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Re: The ninth age

Postby Erised » Wed Jul 08, 2015 12:36 am

First time poster from Canada here. Best news I have seen in while. I agree with this method, run with it guys and post for feedback.

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Re: The ninth age

Postby MightyM00se » Wed Jul 08, 2015 1:49 am

Sir Robert wrote:
MightyM00se wrote:I disagree, Bretonnia needs looking into straight out the gate.

I will take that mantle if need be!


Even as a dyed-in-the-wool Bretonnian player, I still think that the core rules should be addressed first - but then by all means let's get a new army book for Bretonnia going first! :)



Thats my plan! be first for something for once! Viva la bretonnia :D

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Re: The ninth age

Postby rasholm » Wed Jul 08, 2015 2:43 pm

First time poster. Wanted to express my gratitude and approval for undertaking this project. This is why I believe that the fact GW no longer supports WHFB is good for the game. Let the gamers who really cares about the game be in charge of its development. Not the suits at GW.

excited for the future.

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Re: The ninth age

Postby Waaagh Ard Toof » Thu Jul 09, 2015 10:03 pm


That's the way. Design by committee tends towards bland, half-hearted, late efforts.

I'm more of a proponent of a "benevolent dictatorship" that receives feedback, but ultimately follows their vision.

Many people have been pleased by the comp efforts so far and it would be a shame that your work had to slow down by the constraints of working by committee (an international one, no less).

I for one really like the direction you're taking.


100% this. As much as design by committee is a great concept it will quickly get bogged down. I have some ideas about what I would like 9th to look like but if you listened to me and all those like me we will still be discussing this when the Age of Sigmar comes to a close. Keep the number of decision makers small but be prepared to make mistakes.

It sounds like you are doing exactly the right things so good luck to you and I will support your project even if I disagree with some of your rules.

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Re: The ninth age

Postby MightyM00se » Fri Jul 10, 2015 3:46 am

https://www.dropbox.com/s/4gill6j662g5u ... 1.pdf?dl=0


Been busy this week. Mainly arguing about Battle pilgrims. But this is where we are up too right now.


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