The ninth age

Platform for development and feedback of the ninth age project

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dhettneck
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Re: The ninth age

Postby dhettneck » Sun Jul 19, 2015 11:17 am

Our plan is to have something ready to present to all team at the ETC this year. We are working on it as we speak with a few selected international persons in the group and we try to get something out as soon as possible.
Rikard Tröger

Sweden ETC Fantasy Team 2011 (Schweiz) & 2012 (Poland)
Sweden ETC 40K Team 2013/2014 (Serbia) & 2015 (Czech Republic)

Swedish Champion Warhammer 40K 2012 & 2013

Joker
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Re: The ninth age

Postby Joker » Sun Jul 19, 2015 3:27 pm

French community is probably waiting for the end of ETC to discuss rule changes. However, we have some ideas.

In my opinion, we need some little modifications on some rules such as:

_ Reduce the impact of magic and 6th magic spells (like ETC rules)

_ Change the rules of the war machines and especially cannons (using BS and / or lower dmg 1d6 -> 1d3?) : rlly important to diversify units.

_ Light a few units changes: decrease and increase points (steam tank, etc.) like swedish changes

_ Maybe monsters mounted with a single defensive profile (best W, best T, best save) like monstrous cavalry

However, increase the movement of the dwarves is destabilizing 8-[

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Re: The ninth age

Postby Guazza » Sun Jul 19, 2015 7:41 pm

Hi guys, have a look to the OpenHammer project as posted in the link down here. I think that we should really work together to reach the best possible goal capitalizing on experience.

http://warhammer.org.uk/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=130048

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dhettneck
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Re: The ninth age

Postby dhettneck » Mon Jul 20, 2015 6:05 am

Guazza wrote:Hi guys, have a look to the OpenHammer project as posted in the link down here. I think that we should really work together to reach the best possible goal capitalizing on experience.

http://warhammer.org.uk/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=130048


As I understood Lagge had already Contact with someone from your Group, but I could be misstaken.
Rikard Tröger

Sweden ETC Fantasy Team 2011 (Schweiz) & 2012 (Poland)
Sweden ETC 40K Team 2013/2014 (Serbia) & 2015 (Czech Republic)

Swedish Champion Warhammer 40K 2012 & 2013

Jesterhead
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Re: The ninth age

Postby Jesterhead » Mon Jul 20, 2015 7:09 am

dhettneck wrote:
Guazza wrote:Hi guys, have a look to the OpenHammer project as posted in the link down here. I think that we should really work together to reach the best possible goal capitalizing on experience.

http://warhammer.org.uk/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=130048


As I understood Lagge had already Contact with someone from your Group, but I could be misstaken.


Yes, we are in contact already! Of course it takes time to talk this through, but, as Guazza explained clearly, we do believe that this time, after the "big" decision GW took to discontinue WHFB, as ETC community we need to be stronger than ever and the most consistent as possible...

It's gonna be a hard struggle, but we can succeed, because the quality of the people here and all the projects looks amazing...

..... way better than what GW has recently done... :lol:

Andrea

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Re: The ninth age

Postby chocmushroom » Mon Jul 20, 2015 12:52 pm

I've only got to the bottom of page3, but need to put thoughts down before they go as they slip from my head.

Issues so far: Crown of command, Deathstars, Steadfast/Ranks, Purple sun
Mine: Weapons. composition.

Solutions:
Crown of Command. Simply change the rule to say that a majority of a unit must have the steadfast rule. That stops you putting a single character with the rule into a unit. This may mean the Crown will need to be 'Make the character Ld10 for unit they are with, not for I-P'.

Deathstars: Is this a problem? Don't most people say to avoid them or chaff them. It's just the attacking back issue, so making it a rule that if the units rank and file can attack you, you can attack the rank and file.

Steadfast/Rank: I say you just have a different way to work out ranks. So you combine the number of ranks in all flanks for the total. Front =1, Side =1.5, Rear-2.
So one side has a unit with five ranks ,the other side has two units in their front 3 ranks and 2 ranks, one in side of 2 ranks and on in rear of one rank.
Side one has 5
Side two has 3+(2*1.5)+(2*2)=9.5, =9
This would mean neither side is steadfast, and side two has a good combat res.

Purple Sun: Just change Death Magic so that the 12 dice max if for a single phase, so if you have 10 dice to start with, you can only ever gain 2 more no matter how many death spell you get off.

Weapons: More rules, like spears gain ASF if the unit with them are on foot and did not move the previous turn (turning/reforming is allowed).

Composition: We could go more highlander-ish. This would help easy some issues, and also could use more war-scrolls. You could say that you cannot take the same type of troop in a section until you have say three of four different units from that section.
No more WoC with just Chariots as core, as you would need at least two more core until you can take a second unit of chariots. Warscrolls with their more balanced selection can by-pass these rules, so you can have them three units of plague monks, but you can't have even two doom divers without something else from their section first.

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Re: The ninth age

Postby Imperishable » Tue Jul 21, 2015 12:20 am

I signed up here because I have high hopes for this rule system and want to give my 2 cents. I haven`t been in the hobby for a while, but I have been keeping tabs on it and was hoping to get back into it soon, but then AoS killed the lore and game I enjoyed so much.

It has been mentioned already, but I think its very important that the rules system gains a web presence outside the forums in the form of a standalone website to promote the rules and make them easy to find. I don`t think they would survive very long without this. It doesn`t have to be fancy to start, just needs to exist so that it can be expanded on. Maybe eventually it could host its own forums and ways for the community to get more actively involved in rule updates, but I am getting too far ahead now.

I am a web developer/programmer, so I could lend a hand to this. A project on github could be set up so that everything would be open source and be backed up.

Effort should also be made to support battlescribe list building, which is a very popular program for quickly building lists.

Something like this (http://battlescribe.uservoice.com/forums/55066-general) could be useful for getting community feedback on rules. Rule changes could be suggested and voted on, then the "inner council" could make final decisions.

Also I just have one comment about Tomb Kings rules right now ...
-Tomb Scorpion needs to have 4 wounds instead of the 3 they were given in 8th. They used to stand a chance to take out some of those pesky warmachines when they came from below, but with only 3 wounds they don`t do well at all and therefore don`t become worth the risk for the points spent.

Sorry for the long post

Solution9
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Re: The ninth age

Postby Solution9 » Tue Jul 21, 2015 1:58 am

Just wanted to drop my 2 cents for what its worth. I've been playing since 4th ed was waning. I just believe that adding unit strength can fix a number of problems (especially for monsters). I just never understood how a monster could hit a flank and not have any affect on what its attacking. No rank loss or disruption. A monster with 6-8 wounds should have more power in a fight like that. If I remember correctly (please someone correct me where I'm wrong its been some time) a monster could hit on the flank and negate ranks when it had at least 5 wounds. If it went below that then no longer could it negate rank bonuses. Also on a separate note what about bringing guess ranging back? Would that not solve a host of issues as well? Wouldn't that tone down spells and war machines? Especially the cannon? But what does little old me know?

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Re: The ninth age

Postby Maelstrom » Tue Jul 21, 2015 9:30 am

chocmushroom wrote:
Solutions:
Crown of Command. Simply change the rule to say that a majority of a unit must have the steadfast rule. That stops you putting a single character with the rule into a unit. This may mean the Crown will need to be 'Make the character Ld10 for unit they are with, not for I-P'.

Deathstars: Is this a problem? Don't most people say to avoid them or chaff them. It's just the attacking back issue, so making it a rule that if the units rank and file can attack you, you can attack the rank and file.

Purple Sun: Just change Death Magic so that the 12 dice max if for a single phase, so if you have 10 dice to start with, you can only ever gain 2 more no matter how many death spell you get off.


I don't think the crown idea makes much sense. Makes it useless for armies trying to make their medium sized blocks a bit tougher but armies with access to flying mounts can still send lone characters into things and hold em up forever? That's basically 50% of people's issue with the item!

Love the idea of attacking through character walls in gutstars and the like. I've been to a couple events that comped it like that and it worked well.

Purple sun is the only true counter to a lot of armies out there. It needs to stay in just to keep those armies honest.
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Re: The ninth age

Postby chocmushroom » Tue Jul 21, 2015 1:28 pm

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Last edited by chocmushroom on Tue Jul 21, 2015 1:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The ninth age

Postby chocmushroom » Tue Jul 21, 2015 1:31 pm

Maelstrom wrote:
Purple sun is the only true counter to a lot of armies out there. It needs to stay in just to keep those armies honest.


I did not mention getting rid of Purple Sun, just not making it as good by reducing the Power dice gain from it.
I do think we need to change the way miscast work, but only by modifying it by how much power you try to harness. This means that putting six dice into a spell would have a worse effect than two.

Lets say the average is three or four dice, putting fewer in will give you more control, more less control.
So how about
For putting in 2-4 dice, the caster can modify the result, 5-6 the opponent can.
If you use 2 or 6 dice it can be modified by 2
If you use 3 or 5 dice it can be modified by 1

Give you more incentive to avoid them big 6 dicers

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Re: The ninth age

Postby Maelstrom » Tue Jul 21, 2015 1:44 pm

That level of modification has absolutely no basis in 8th. I like the 5 dice cap and double 6 no longer being irresistible. The miscast chart also seems to do a good job (maybe a little harsh).
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Re: The ninth age

Postby Marcai » Tue Jul 21, 2015 4:41 pm

I'm sure it's been seen already, but there is a long list of possible changes on theWarhammer Armies Project website. These aren't written by me, and I don't agree with quite a few of them; Equally, I really like the sounds of others such as new Winds of Magic/ channelling generation, Impact Hits and 4 models wide for cav or +1 to hit if flanking. As this thread is about possibilities, the more ideas we have floating around can make the final product better, right?

Basic Rules:

Line of Sight is divided into different heights for various troop types and terrain instead of true LoS.
Terrain is basic without special rules by default, "magical forests" is an optional rule that the players decide on.
The player who gets to choose table side starts to deploy first.
VP's are rewarded for killing 50% of a unit, 50% if the unit is fleeing at the end of the game.

Movement:

Charge distance is M + 2D3", and M + 2D6" for models with Swiftstride.
Failed charge = move the result on both dice.
Distance when charging is measured from the longest distance a model [in the front rank] has to travel, not the shortest.
Units may not move within 3" on an enemy unit's front voluntarily, unless they are charging said unit. This gets rid of the problem of cheap redirectors blocking the movement of a bigger unit completely. It can still be used to try and flush enemies out, just not to the same degree.

Magic:

Generating Magic dice is 2D3 for each player, roll 4+ for each wizard level to generate extra Power dice. Half when determining dispel dice, rounding up (Lvl 1-2 rolls 1 dice, Lvl 3-4 rolls 2).
Miscast on double 1, Irresistible Force on double 6.
Miscast result depends on number of dice used.
5 dice maximum to cast.
"Look Out, Sir!" applies to instant kill spells that effect the entire unit.

Shooting:

War Machines can only fire at targets in it's front arc without moving.
Cannonballs scatter D3" before bounce.
+1 to hit on short range (25% of maximum range), no penalty for long range.
Riders on Mo are hit by cannons on a 5+, Mo on 1-4. With Stone Throwers, they are hit (under the hole) only if the rider model is actually if the middle of the template, otherwise they just suffer the smaller S.
Bolt Throwers allow armour saves, have Armour Piercing rule instead.
Fast Cavalry can fire 360 degrees.

Close Combat:

Remove supporting attacks for everything except spears and pikes (making spears and additional hand weapons more useful, and great weapons and halberds less of a no-brainer).
Remove Horde formation.
Bring back Unit Strength, Steadfast determined by this rather than ranks.Unit Strength = total number of W on a model's profile, including riders/mounts. (Example: Cavalry = US2, Dragon ridden by Lord = US9).
Charging a unit in the flank with a unit with a US of 5 or more and at least one complete rank causes Disruption. Monsters with W5 or more always counts as having a complete rank.
Steadfast solution #1= +1 ignore negative modifier for break tests for each 1x that the unit outnumber their opponent (20 models vs 20 get 0, 21 vs 20 get +1, 40 vs 20 models get +2, 60 vs 20 models get +3 etc.). Example: unit of 42 Goblins (Ld6) lose a combat against 17 Swordmasters with 3, giving the Goblins Ld3. Because of Steadfast (+2), they have Ld5 when taking the test.
Steadfast solution #2 = Disruption cancels it.
Steadfast solution #3 = remove it. For each 1x that a unit outnumber enemies in base contact, they get +1 CR. Example: 40 Skaven slaves vs 5 Empire Knights = +4 CR.
Regular troops can always be attacked in combat, even if not in direct base contact.
Charge = +1I, +1 CR. For every unit with US5+ that charges the same unit, +1 CR.
High Ground always give +1 CR, not just when charging.
+1 CR for wider frontage than opponent (can be combined with multiple units).
+1 CR for each flank attacked.
Flanking units gets +1 To Hit.
Fleeing units suffers a W (with no saves) for every attack that the pursuing unit has if "caught". (Example, unit of 4 Ogres with additional HW's causes 16 Wounds). The pursuing unit is then placed 1" in behind the fleeing unit. This keeps small units from instantly killing huge units in one go.
Redo Weapon Skill table to allow elites To Hit on 2's vs poor troops (WS 2x+1).

Special Rules:

ASF no longer allow re-rolls to Hit, remove ASF from Elves.
Fear = -1Ld, Terror = -2 Ld. No roll at the start of combat.
Flaming Attacks = re-roll 1's To Wound. (no Regen). In the case of Missile weapons, -1 To Hit as well. Unit that can already do this re-roll both 1's and 2's To Wound.
Impact hits [at the mount's Strength] for Cavalry and MC, +1S if barded.
Units can Killing Blow riders of the same size/Troop Type.
Magic Resistance applies to spells that "do not allow any save".
Regeneration comes into effect at the end of each combat round, so set it apart from Ward saves.
Remove Stomp.
Stupidity test before movement rather than Start of Turn.
Volley Fire allow all ranks to fire, but with -1 To Hit. Can only be used at long range (maximum range/2).
Additional (optional) hand weapon types (to be used with shields): swords = parry, axes/morning stars = +1 S first round, hammers/maces = armour piercing.
Spear (mounted) = +1S, +1I (on foot, fight in extra ranks, +1I when charged).
Pike = fight in extra ranks (3), +2I when charged.
Lance = +2S, +2I.
Great weapon = +2S, -2I.
BSB only allow re-roll of Break Tests, not all Leadership tests.
Cavalry get rank bonus for being 4 models wide rather than 5.
Champions no longer allowed to do challenges (will get other special rule instead).


One thing I would love to see on an army book level is more targets with the Flammable special rule. I can only think of maybe 2-4 units in the whole game who suffer from this effect, it would be nice to see it transferred onto other wooden constructs, such as war machines or chariots. A new style of Regen would also be appreciate, where it's no longer a fruity Ward Save but instead something more interesting, although I'm at a loss as to how it could work in a way that keeps it relevant.
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That which is sublime I will protect
That which threatens, I will destroy,
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Vulcan
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Re: The ninth age

Postby Vulcan » Tue Jul 21, 2015 8:59 pm

_Barbarossa_ wrote:The best way to stop deathstars is unit size caps for all units and a one character per unit rule. This means an elite unit will be better, but will not be absurdly OP. Honestly, you should not have units worth 1400 points in a game of 2000 points.


Of course, with that rule there needs to be some way to scale that unit size up for large battles. What is ridiculous in a 2000 point battle becomes typical in a 10,000 point battle.

And yes, I have played in two 10,000 point PLUS battles. So have several others on the board.

A simpler solution is 'no single unit can exceed 1/4 the army limit, and no more than one character can be added to a unit.' Helps cut down the deathstar problem, and ends multi-character shenanigans.
Wrong Vulcan, you pointy-eared freak!

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Re: The ninth age

Postby Frederique » Tue Jul 21, 2015 10:06 pm

Marcai; maybe regen should be like the new Hydra got. But change it to more frequent than just friendly combat turns. :)

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Re: The ninth age

Postby Valkom » Wed Jul 22, 2015 5:15 pm

Just for the info, I'm a 20+ years WFB players, I organise a lot of events, tournaments, and I like to play competitive play a lot. I think that whatever is done, one of the most important part is that the rules and the changes to the rules need to be clear. Updates and FAQs should be done regulary to make sure power level and weakness in the system are deal with.

I read many things that I like, some less. Here are some of my though:

Canon:
Should roll to hit, why is it that a war machine made for shooting doesn't use BS? It could go something like that -> roll to hit as per usual rules but ignore cover as a canonball will just go straight througt it, apply longue range modifier, skirmish modifier, and lone infantry model modifier (-1 like skirmisher) If you hit, roll the artillery dice for the bounce and if you roll a missfire, it is an incident. Could do d3+1 wound instead of d6, still need the same roll to kill a lord level character, less random, cannot kill 5+ wounds model with one shot but can still crush a hero level character like it should.

Also, change the point cost or abilities of the skull canon and ogre canon, they are just stupidly too good for what they do! Skull canon should be strenght 6, d3 wounds, armour piercing, flaming attack and that still too good for a mere 135 points. With the same rule, the ogre canon should go up to 195 points.

Monster/chariot, etc:
Ridder and monster are one entity that has two statelines like a chariot. They use highest thoughness, add wound counts, use the same save and ward/regen save, (never better than 4+ for sanity sake) but they use two statelines when it is time to attack so a griffon would not benefit from the auto wound rule of the rider runefang or anything like that. This should help make them more durable, have a good punch when they attack, but not make them the invincible thing they are with End Times.

Steadfast:
If unit strength comes back it should be cancel with a unit strength of 10 and more, if not, with two ranks.

Magic:
A mage can use up to his level plus 2 dices to cast a spell. This should limit ''mage bomb''.
A mage can choose his spell but the level of spell he can choose is his level + 2. So a mage l.1 can only chose the default spell and spells 1, 2 and 3.
Misscast should worst if you use more dices, for example, if you miscast, roll two dices and add the number of dices you used, the higher you get the worst it get.

Close Combat
Weapons should give initiative bonus. Spear or halberd+1, lance +2 and you should get an initiative bonus for charging.
Charge should be 2d3 for infantry (also for pursuit, fleeing unit, etc) and 2d6 for swiftstride
Fear could double the result by which you win to modify the leadership test

Army book
I think that most army book are well balance against each other, but the internal balance of most of the bokk isn’t. This is something that should be worked on. My main army is Empire, I never use so many units in my army because they are obsolete, this is not a good thing. For example with this book, most infantry should cost 1 points less, combat characters should cost less or give better abilities to their unit, etc

I’m planning to use updated 8th edition rules for the next tournament I organise in October, if the 9th Age is going well enough, it is what we will use.

Dom


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