X-wing format discussion

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severian
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X-wing format discussion

Postby severian » Fri Sep 11, 2015 8:27 am

Here is a place to discuss format for the tournament in a following year (2016 Athens)
Lizardman player ETC 2011
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meldon
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Re: X-wing format discussion

Postby meldon » Fri Sep 11, 2015 12:20 pm

Good idea, I will just post the last draft in here so people don't have to jump between 2 windows.

This is what salnihra posted.

Fellow X-wing enthusiasts,

Please see below a draft X-wing team tournament rules pack for ETC 2016. It is a proposal filled with culminated ideas and I present it to you with hopes that it will provide us a good discussion platform.

Compliments should go to Team Serbia and Theodore for their support and collaboration.

Event: ETC X-wing 2016
Venue: Greece
Date: August ... 2016
Ticket Price: TBD
Timetable: TBD
Approved Waves: All models including Wave 8 (possibly)
Points: 100
Lists due: June ... 2016 to etcxwinglists@gmail.com

Players per Team: 6 (teams must follow the nationality requirements of the ETC Charter). A team may also include a non-playing coach/manager. The coach can be used as a substitute player, using the army of the player he replaces.

Team Restrictions: Each team must consist of the following factions:
2 Rebels
2 Imperial
2 Scum&Villany

Unique named pilots and upgrades may only appear once in a team. There can be no identical lists in a team’s roster.

Each player must also specify which 3 obstacle he/she will use throughout the tournament in his list. Both asteroids and debris fields can be used for obstacles.

Model and upgrade card cut-off: Only models and cards released by June .., 2016 may be used. FAQs published until the date of the event will be applicable in the tournament.

Rules: Star Wars X-wing Miniatures Game Rules of Play and all applicable Errata and FAQ’s

Pairing System: For round one, teams will be paired randomly. For rounds 2 to 5, teams will be paired using the Swiss Chess system (i.e. 1st on the leaderboard plays 2nd, 3rd plays 4th etc.), with the exception that rematches will be avoided. Total Team Margin of Victory Score will be taken into consideration when determining rankings between teams that have the same point.

Top 8 teams after 5 round of gaming will move forward to Elimination Rounds. Pairings in the elimination rounds will be determined according to Swiss results. Top 8 teams will be seeded per their team rankings, the Team which ranked highest will be paired with the lowest ranked team, the second-highest team will be paired with the second-lowest team, and so on. A team which loses in the elimination round is removed from the bracket and the remaining teams are paired using the same system where the highest ranked team will play with the lowest ranked team until there is only one remaining team who will be proclaimed the champion.

The players will be matched up using the following system:
1. Team A puts up one if its 6 squads, Team B does the same.
2. Team A puts up two squads against the one put up by Team B, Team B does the same.
3. Team A chooses one of the two squads put up by Team B to be played against the squad first put up by team A and determines one pair, Team B does the same.
4. The squads that did not get chosen return to the team pool.
5. Team A puts up one if its 4 remaining squads, Team B does the same.
6. Team A puts up two squads against the one put up by Team B, Team B does the same.
7. Team A chooses one of the two squads put up by Team B to be played against the squad first put up by team A and determines one pair, Team B does the same.
8. The squad of Team A that did not get chosen by team B plays against the last squad remaining in the pool of Team B. The squad of Team B that did not get chosen by team B plays against the last squad remaining in the pool of Team A.
Once the parinigs are done the players move to deployment. Star Wars X-wing Miniatures Game Rules of Play and all applicable Errata and FAQ’s shall be applicable for the game rules and deployment prinicples. Each player sets forth it’s chosen obstacles to the board at the same time to form an obstacle pool of 6 Then they proceed to place them as usual, picking any of the six pieces from this pool of obstacles.
Schedule
TBD

Scoring System: Standard Star Wars X-wing Miniature Game Tournament Rules scoring, a win is 5 victory points (“VP”), a modified win is 3 VP, a draw is 1 VP.

The player with the greater score at the end of the game receives a win, and his opponent receives a loss. If the winning player’s score is fewer than 12 points more than his or her opponent’s score, that player receives a modified win. If both players have the same score, the game ends in a draw.

Margin of Victory ("MoV"): At the end of each match, the player who has destroyed more squad points adds the amount by which his score exceeds his opponent’s score to 100 and records it on his or her score sheet. The player who has destroyed fewer squad points subtracts the same amount from 100 and records it on his or her score sheet.If a player destroys all of his opponent’s ships, his opponent’s squad is worth 100 squad points, even if it is worth fewer squad points to begin with. If both players destroy an identical number of squad points, each player receives a Margin of Victory of 100 points. If a player concedes the match, all of his remaining ships are destroyed.
The VP’s and MoV scored in each game are added to team's score. The leaderboard will be sorted primarily by VP’s, and then by MoV’s.

Timings:
1. Each round will last for a total of 90 (15+75) minutes. A round is divided into 15 minutes of pairings and 75 minutes of game time.
2. Any players not paired after 15 minutes should be randomly paired.

If you feel your opponent is slow-playing, then the following procedure should be used;
1 - Ask him nicely to speed up a bit.
2 - Tell your captain, who should speak to the opposing captain who should tell the player to speed up.
3 - Inform a referee

List Submission: Captains must submit their team's rosters by 23:59 (CET) on ../../15. Lists should be emailed to etcxwinglists@gmail.com. The lists should include the following information:
- Player's name
- Player's team
- Faction
- The details of each ship, pilot and upgrade cards.

After the deadline, all the rosters will be distributed to each captain who submitted his team's lists on time. The lists will be checked by the X-wing Captains' Council, and any necessary changes made ASAP with minimal changes to the list. There will be points penalties for teams that submit their lists late, or include illegal armies.

Models/Proxies: No proxies are allowed.

Cheers,

Halil Kardıçalı, Captain for X-wing Team Turkey
ETC Northern Ireland 40K 2011-2013
ETC Northern Ireland Warhammer 2009-2010

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meldon
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Re: X-wing format discussion

Postby meldon » Fri Sep 11, 2015 12:29 pm

From a first read through this all seems good, I much prefer the 6 man teams with 2 of each.

I haven't got the new starter yet but I did see a pic that suggested that Resistance and First Order were 2 new factions which might have an impact on the final choices of forces if there are now 5 factions :)
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meldon
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Re: X-wing format discussion

Postby meldon » Fri Sep 11, 2015 12:34 pm

Ignore me, just had a look at the FFG site and I can see they stack up so just still 3 factions.
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Re: X-wing format discussion

Postby Floody2 » Fri Sep 11, 2015 10:42 pm

Like a lot of the above but one thing I'd look at is the round scoring. There's a lot of merit to winning a round that this doesn't quite cover.
Having the team with the greater score "win" the round adds a lot but doesnt change rankings much. The knock out isn't really an ETC thing and I'm not sure it fits too well. I'll expand more on both in the morning
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Re: X-wing format discussion

Postby Toffolone » Sat Sep 12, 2015 10:23 am

out of my experience, the points system used by FFG is not good for a tournament. expecially a team one (no real chance of drawing, no difference for the loser wether a modified loss or a loss). we'd better elaborate a 0-20 system, maybe something based on the difference of squad points made( =points destroyed).
could be something very simple
difference in squad points made (Match points total of the six matches will determine the team point for that round)
0-10 then both players score 10 MP
11-15 then winner takes 11 MP loser takes 9
15-23 then it will be 12-8
24-32 -> 13-7
...
X-100 -> 20-0

In case you wonder I didn't use 10 points tiers because that would not arrive to 20-0. Of course the point tiers are debatable. my goal is to differentiate someone tha fought to the last hull point and lost all his ships while destroying all but one fighter to the opponenent (losing by mere 12 point of a z95 or a tie) from someone that was completly trashed without even putting down a ship of the opponent (losing 100 -0). In both cases winner takes 100 points. loser takes zero. is that right?. While in single tournaments the MOV helps, in team format it simply does not work.
we can also consider half squad point for ship reduced under half they hull value, maybe for large ship only (don't forget that wave 8 will have a ship that may go up to 100 points by herself: you destroy a 12 points tie and you run for the rest of the game)-

the sytem above, besides staying in line with the other systems ued at WTC, will bring new strategy to the game, and will be what can distinguish (for bad or for good only time will say) this ETCtournament from normal organized play by FFG.
My two cents
T.

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Re: X-wing format discussion

Postby jagosaja » Sat Sep 12, 2015 8:07 pm

Thanks for the input, it is very welcome.

To be honest, while it is true that it is hard to draw a game in X-Wing, I myself don't mind the scoring system FFG has introduced and which has been proposed here. You see, in such way a team may win from 0 to 30 points per game. Since a single score can be 0, 1, 2 or 5, I believe that scores will vary a lot each round.

Points difference of 0-20 per game is used in Warhammer and there it makes sense since value for each army is around 2500 pts, so the difference really matters. Here, where one will usually field 2-4 ships, the victory margin can hardly be divided into 10 categories (11-20 points for a win).

Frankly, I am still not acquainted with that ship that can take 100 points, but if you can field one ship and survive the match while killing something, you deserve to win. X-Wing is, in my opinion, a very balanced game, so I quite honestly don't believe one can field a single indestructible ship. Even if some lists could have a hard time coping with that build, there is a pairing system that enables you to pair it with a list that is an answer to that.
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Re: X-wing format discussion

Postby Floody2 » Sat Sep 12, 2015 9:09 pm

So to expand on what I was starting, and I think Toffolone covers a chunk of it, is that the ETC is really rgreat when you add in the team element, pairings and a Team win. This happens in 40k and fantasy but doesn't so much in FoW. If we were to use a 0-20 based score per game, based on whatever / FFG system we could follow the round win format.

120 game points on offer total for 6 games, if your team scores 66 points your team has won the round and gets 3 points, if you score 55 to 65 points it's a round draw and both teams get 1, 55 or less and you lose.
The teams can then be divided up by their game points scores for matching up teams.

In the FoW games there are no round wins and this really cool element of the team game is taken away. There's nothing like waiting on that last game hoping for those last few points from your team mate to push you up into the round win!
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Re: X-wing format discussion

Postby Toffolone » Sat Sep 12, 2015 9:21 pm

actually possible scores in each game are 0, 3 or 5. There are really too few chances of drawing a match (unless it is a mirror) and, as I already said, for the looser there's no difference between loss and modified loss.
and according to me, this reason only is enough to say the point system adopted by FFG is not good.
and if you destroy a tie then keep running away for the rest of the game with your 100 points, 10 hull, 6 shields, a turret and two separate attacks per round, and evade as action, you are not a good player...you are doing the basics...there could be a monkey playing with the same results.
We should not forget the reason why the 0-20 points systems was introduced in the ETC.

I was thinking more of total points per team. so a team wins and a team loses. it only changes by how much they win or loose.also a cap can be introduced.
It is only a matter of deciding how many ship points to get one match points. maybe 9 would be the best,
after all if i destroy a z95 = 13 points, and you destroy a tie accademy pilot = 12 points....according to FFG I win 3-0. but am I really better than you? no, I think we are the same skill. simply my ship is cheaper by 1 point.
with "my" system this would be a tie

T.

jagosaja
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Re: X-wing format discussion

Postby jagosaja » Sat Sep 12, 2015 10:07 pm

In fantasy one team can possibly win with 160 points which is capped at 100. Consequently, one team can possibly lose with 0 points which is capped at 60. This is great.

This X-Wing proposal states that a team can possibly win with 30 and lose with 0 points. Sure, we can introduce a cap. Sure, we can expand the points won so the gap gets bigger to differentiate smaller and bigger wins. To me it really is not much of a difference should we go 0-30 or 0-160 (60-100), but if you prefer it that way, I see no problem, so this is all quite good. Anyway, beside victory points, margin will always be included, so everything will count.

As for the big ship, I suggest we see how it will fare on the board. We still have plenty of time 'till the next ETC. If it turns out to be a big problem, I believe that, with your help, we can find a solution by imposing further limitations, or something like that.

You are right about points, 0, 3 and 5, but there is still a chance of getting a draw. Not that it really does matter, but a 1 is still a possibility.

But look, lets say that we introduce 0-20 system, and Dash-Corran meets Brobots, it really comes down to 0-1-3-5 points, the only difference is when you lose you just lose with 0 points, you don't get something between 0 and 10.

To make the long story short, since I am not in charge of anything, just trying to make a proposal, how about you define the scoring system proposal and post it here. These are all just ideas so far, so when the things really get started the captains, chairmen and organizers will find a way to choose what is best. You proposal is very good, just as I beleive is the current one, so thank you for your support, please keep up giving ideas and suggesting corrections and hopefully we will make a great tournament.
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Re: X-wing format discussion

Postby kgkid » Sun Sep 13, 2015 6:47 am

The Cap is actually a good idea, implemented in both FB and 40k.

It prevents starting "pairing luck" influencing the final scores to much.

It is never possible foreseeing the quality of Teams, and Swiss system is used to balance things out over the course of the tournament. Still if you go for 160-0 for a Team it proved to bee too much of an advantage for Teams that had luck to be paired with weaker teams in the first round(s). The Cap is not something that someone just invented. It was developed as an answer for an existing problem and should be, probably, accepted for new systems as well. It is not necessary to learn everything from the same mistakes each time.

The actual value of the cap should be determined proportionally, I guess.
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Re: X-wing format discussion

Postby Toffolone » Sun Sep 13, 2015 11:21 am

jagosaja, you are sustaining my point with your example: with the actual points system 0-5, people are encouraged to play a few ships with lots of hull points + shield (brobots, che-ebo, fat han, deci-vader, 4xYwith turret, 4xB with FCS). So that it takes time to lose some real points. and even when you loose some points, you still have chances to win by simply downing a couple of opponent's ship. Denying your opponent of any match point (because no matter how much he/she looses by, he/she still scores 0 points)
If we consider a different system, and we consider to give half points for large vessels reduced to less than half their hull (or maybe any vessel, but this looks too big a change to me), there will be a whole new range of things to considerate during play. a player cannot shoot down one ship then simply wait.

I'm looking it from the loosers side: once your match is compromised, and tehre no way to win or even to draw, at least you can try to loose with less margin and try to gain some points for your team. in the actaul system you cannot even try to get a modified loss, because you still loose with 0 MP.

Now stretching the concept to the extreme, let's say a team is loosing 4 matches and winning 2. In the actual system, they would have lost the round, no matter what (best they can do is 10 to 12). So even if they try to get 4 modified losses, all they achieve is to concede less match points to the other team, thus actually heping other teams bt not themselves.

with the 0-20 system, they can try to reduce the gap in the loosing matches and increase it in the winning ones - this way a team strategy enters in the game.

Regarding the way we should make the 0-20 system, I saw that 10 points steps is no good: it ends to 19-1.
so maybe 9 points step would be better:
difference in ships points points gained by winning team points gained by loosing team
0-9 -> 10 10
10-17 -> 11 9
18-26 -> 12 8
---
72-80 -> 18 2
81-89 -> 19 1
90-100 -> 20 0

then the team scoring can go from 0 to 120, but we should put a cap to 40-80
then the uncapped scoring of each team can be used as tie breaker
actual total ships destroyed points of a team can be used as second tie breaker

as my last consideration I would like to repeat that a different points system, should be the thing that differentiate this tournament from the other tournaments all over the world.
Why take the pain (and spend teh money) to come up to Greece when I can have the same tournament two streets down the block?
T.

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Re: X-wing format discussion

Postby jagosaja » Sun Sep 13, 2015 11:55 am

I like most of your proposal and would suggest using it. Here's what I might like to be altered - make the step 10 points, but the only way it could be a draw is if the difference is 0 points. The reason behind this is that it is much easier to calculate. Sure, chance to draw is insignificant, but I don't see that as a problem.

I suggest doing this because I know a lot of people don't want to play ETC style because things tend to get overly complicated. As X-Wing on ETC is in it's earliest stages, it may be wise to keep things a little simpler to draw in more people.

So, score is calculated by dividing the difference by 10, rounded up (down if the score is negative), and adding 10 to it. Simple as that. In such a way we are still keeping the scoring system and everything is cool. How do you like it this way?

As for giving half the points for taking a ship below half wounds, I am not sure about that, but it can remain an open question.
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Re: X-wing format discussion

Postby Toffolone » Sun Sep 13, 2015 4:25 pm

you are still considering the tournament as a slightly different single tournament.
But indeed thiss one would be a team tournament. with team strategies putting down in the list making.
actually I know a lot of people that don't like the present point systems.
And a lot of people thinks that a draw would be a fairer score instead of a winner+ loser when the difference is just a few points.
Anyway the final decision is neither mine nor yours to take.
I think there will be some sore of vote...right?

if I understand correctly we have two options now:

a) difference in ships points -> points gained by winning team /points gained by loosing team
0-9 -> 10 /10
10-17 -> 11 /9
18-26 -> 12 /8
---
72-80 -> 18 /2
81-89 -> 19 /1
90-100 -> 20 /0

b) difference in ships points -> points gained by winning team /points gained by loosing team
0 -> 10 /10
1 -10 -> 11 /9
11-20 -> 12 /8
21-30 -> 13 /7
---
71-80 -> 18/ 2
81-90 -> 19 /1
91-100 -> 20 /0

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Re: X-wing format discussion

Postby jagosaja » Sun Sep 13, 2015 5:23 pm

[quote="Toffolone"]you are still considering the tournament as a slightly different single tournament.
But indeed thiss one would be a team tournament. with team strategies putting down in the list making.[/quote]

No, I'm not considering this as a singles tournament. I've participated in teams competition at ETC for past 3 years, so I am very clear on this. I have created software for my team to deal with pairing and I know what it is to create lists for the team tournament. So there is no need to get personal and claim what I think. I am giving a proposal for what I think may be best for this tournament, in good will.

[quote="Toffolone"]actually I know a lot of people that don't like the present point systems.
And a lot of people thinks that a draw would be a fairer score instead of a winner+ loser when the difference is just a few points.
Anyway the final decision is neither mine nor yours to take.
I think there will be some sore of vote...right?[/quote]

A lot of people don't like ETC, but then again a lot of people do. It is up to personal preference. And so far it is nobodies decision to make, as noone is there to decide yet. Again, these are all just proposals so far. There may be a vote, there may be not. Hopefully, a lot of teams will sign up for this, elect their captains, and they will find a way to choose what is best together with the organizer and chairmen. If it bothers you and other players a lot that it may be hard to achieve a 10-10 result, it will be fixed. All I am saying is that it much easier to determine a score by dividing a result by 10 then by 9. We all know math, but this is easier, and that should be the way we should strive, in my opinion.

[quote="Toffolone"]if I understand correctly we have two options now:

a) difference in ships points -> points gained by winning team /points gained by loosing team
0-9 -> 10 /10
10-17 -> 11 /9
18-26 -> 12 /8
---
72-80 -> 18 /2
81-89 -> 19 /1
90-100 -> 20 /0

b) difference in ships points -> points gained by winning team /points gained by loosing team
0 -> 10 /10
1 -10 -> 11 /9
11-20 -> 12 /8
21-30 -> 13 /7
---
71-80 -> 18/ 2
81-90 -> 19 /1
91-100 -> 20 /0[/quote]

Actually all we have are proposals, neither are options yet. And there is also a third proposal, by current FFG scoring system. It has not been dismissed. There is no need to dismiss a current proposal yet, it is much better to give one yourself so that we can all make a good thing out of all proposals.

Please, be so kind to form up a ruleset proposal you would prefer and post it here. In that way it would be much easier for everybody to see and to decide when the time comes.
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Re: X-wing format discussion

Postby meldon » Mon Sep 14, 2015 8:16 am

I agree thats the FFG system has many benefits, top amongst them is that people are used to working it out.

It think its man disadvantage is that a couple of big wins for a team could put them too far ahead to catch so perhaps a divisor either 10 (to keep it simple) or 5 so we have a 20/0 system.

I would propose the following

Player score between 0-10
Calculated as follows

FFG Score System/10
In modified win/lose scenario loser ALWAYS rounds down, winner ALWAYS rounds up for fractions.

Team Scores between 0-60 however for the first X rounds there is a cap in place, max scores are 10-50
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Re: X-wing format discussion

Postby salnihra » Mon Sep 14, 2015 8:40 am

Hello All,

It seems to me that the main issues discussed are the following:

1) A cap for how much points a team can get from a round.

2) Losing grace: a team should be able to score some points even when they are losing + there should be a realistic chance for having a draw.

Maybe something like the following may work (the math can be discussed):

In a match:
Draw: 0-12 points of difference
Minor victory: 13-25 points difference
Major victory: 26-100 points difference

Draw both players get 2 pts
Minor winner gets 6 - loser gets 4
Major winner gets 10 pts

In this case the total points that a team can get will be 60 but we can also cap the same at 40 to ensure a cap.

The total points of ship destroyed by the teams may be calculated on the side as the tie braker.

Cheers,
Halil Kardicali
X-Wing ETC Team Turkey 2016 - Captain
X-Wing ETC 2016 Game Master

Toffolone
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Re: X-wing format discussion

Postby Toffolone » Mon Sep 14, 2015 1:35 pm

Actually the ruleset in the very first post of this thread is good enough for me. With the exception of the point system.
Now I focused on the 0-20 system in order to keep in line with the other ETC systems, but the system proposed by Salnihra seems good.

The main reason for a -20 system is to differentiate more the total team points.
If you only have 4 possible results for a match (e.g 0-2-4-6 according to Salnihra system or 0 1 3 5 for FFG system) the total team score will not be really different.
LEt's two teams win all 6 matches in one round.
they have 24 points (or 20) total.
In a 0-20 system, thay may have from 110 up to 120

Now, when I speak of team strategies, I mean that a team may bring some lists meant to "not loose" against specific lists...
If we don't consider this everybody brings the best possible quadron or the second best for each faction (and we all know that there are 4 or 5 list out there, it suffices to look on you tube for finals or semifinals of big tournaments) and we find ourselves with a tournament no different from any single tournament.
I hope this Xwing ETC may become something peculiar. but to do this we may need to steer away from FFG tournament rules....

Anyway I guess the TO has the final word on it.

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Re: X-wing format discussion

Postby jagosaja » Mon Sep 14, 2015 4:17 pm

First of all, thank you all for the support and enthusiasm!

Ok, so the question remains open what will be the exact scoring system. I think that is not a difficult question and that it will be solved very soon.

How many games do you guys think we should play? The initial proposal, if I understand correctly, is that we play for 2 days, so 4 games on the first day, one game on the second, and then top 8 teams play 3 more play-off games. This looks very exciting to me, I like it and would stick to it, but it also diverges from the ETC standard where the entire tournaments stick to the Swiss pairing system. Is this fine by you?

So far we have these teams interested (sorry if I missed someone):
- Ireland
- Turkey
- Serbia
- Northern Ireland
- Italy
- France
- England
- Wales

I know it may be a bit to early to insist on this, but if you can, please inform other nations of this so that they too may participate in organization and that we may imagine what size the tournament will be.
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MunkeyKungFu
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Re: X-wing format discussion

Postby MunkeyKungFu » Mon Sep 14, 2015 8:22 pm

Just a thought but given the nature and simplicity of X-Wing lists, is there a need for list submission 2 months before the event?
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Re: X-wing format discussion

Postby Icareane » Mon Sep 14, 2015 8:34 pm

Hello, Icareane here, the current French X-Wing champion.

The current FFG system rewards wins over draws to prevent player collusion at tournaments. In a team format I feel that this is unwarranted.
Thus I think that a match draw should split the match points between both players. I also really liked the team round victory when I played in the 40K ETC.

I suggest the following system:

Match VP (from 0 to 100, différence of ships destroyed):
0 match draw 5 pts -5pts
1-11 : 4-6
12-35: 3-7
36-59: 2-8
60-83: 1-9
84-100 0-10

Team round (add all match VP):
25 or less : team loss 0pt (5 draws and 1 full loss)
26-34 : team draw 1pts
35-60 : team win 2 pts (5 draws and 1 full win)

Sum of all match VPs is the secondary tie breaker
Sum of all MOV is the third tie breaker

I do not think elimination rounds are a good idea for ETC, mostly because it's rather frustrating to fly to a foreign country and then just stand around for the end of the tournament. I believe the tournament should be swiss to the end (so 8 games of swiss without allowing repeat games). If we do qualify for a top, then there should at least be a loosers bracket.

jagosaja
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Re: X-wing format discussion

Postby jagosaja » Mon Sep 14, 2015 10:17 pm

Hello MunkeyKungFu!

No date is set, so it will most probably be in line with other systems. I don't think it is two months ahead, but closer to one month ahead.

Hello Icareane!

From proposals given so far it is most likely that there will be a points system where losers will not be simply given 0 points, but there will be a pool of points split in accordance to the difference in a result in a game. So no worries there.

However, I don't see why would we give another score to the total for a team? If a team would win, say 95 to 75 (assuming such a scoring system, or 18-12 in some other scoring system), wouldn't it be better to leave it like that so that it is easier to directly differentiate places on the scoring table? Although I may be wrong, wouldn't it be redundant to scale such scores in several new categories yet again?

As for elimination rounds, it is a good question. It is a format given by FFG, but don't people also stand and watch on regular FFG tournaments when it comes to play-off? Would it be a good idea then to play 6 matches and then to have a play-off for top 4? Just throwing in ideas.
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Re: X-wing format discussion

Postby Icareane » Tue Sep 15, 2015 6:31 am

However, I don't see why would we give another score to the total for a team? If a team would win, say 95 to 75 (assuming such a scoring system, or 18-12 in some other scoring system), wouldn't it be better to leave it like that so that it is easier to directly differentiate places on the scoring table? Although I may be wrong, wouldn't it be redundant to scale such scores in several new categories yet again?
.


Having separate points for team level victory gives you a tighter field and reduces the luck/draw factor. This means that good teams paired against weaker teams in the early phase of the tournament will have a smaller bonus ( this is the system adopted by all sports with leagues : for exemple football, basketball, rugby...), and that any team loss in the end of the tournament is significant. Otherwise a team might have such a big point cushion from the beginning of the tournament (where it faced propably weaker opponents) that end tournament losses don't matter.

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Re: X-wing format discussion

Postby Toffolone » Tue Sep 15, 2015 2:08 pm

Icareane,
First in your system there is stil no real chance of drawing.
One of the main reasons why ETC is so appreciated Worldwide is that it allows for team strategies during matches. I mean captains asking their players to play more conservative in order to reduce losses when the other matches are going well.
Secondly: to avoid the early pairing luck, ther eis the proposed cap system which seems to work quite well for other systems

So I stubbornly suggest a point system that has a bracket for drawing and rewards losers with some points if he put up a good opposition.

then we can simply add match points made by each team and we have a ranking....

I say the other systems are following this kind of points systems and all is good. Ad it has gone smoothly for nearly a decade. So why we should not follow their lead?

Reagrding matches, there's no need for a top cut on the second day.
It lloks like everybody is stuck to normal FFG tournament play.
Anyway considering each turn should be at least 90 minutes (on which 75 minutes for actual match and 15 minutes for pairing purposes). Other systems play for 3 hours (or maybe even 3 and a half) so since they play two turn per day, we have at least 6 hours which are 4 turns.
Then we should consider half an hour before first match and after any subsequent match, just to put data in COmputer and announcing pairings and moving between tables (it may seem too much time, but anybody who has been in the ETC maelstrom knows the complete mayhem there is in the hall, so 30 minutes for logistics is the minimum).
We should also considering Lunch time.
Having said so. We can have 4 games on first day and maybe 3 or 4 games on the second day. At the end of it the team with more points simply wins...then award ceremony thanks and greetings, and we are off.

But again, everyone has his own idea of how this tournament should be. Hey we can even think of playng with more than 100 points, breaking all the premade builds for squadron (now that I think about it, that would be interesting).

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Re: X-wing format discussion

Postby jagosaja » Tue Sep 15, 2015 5:41 pm

Toffolone, I agree, there should be a chance for a draw and there should be rewarding for smaller losses. I believe it will be implemented. Also, I believe cap will be introduced. As you said, it already works for the ETC so it will work for this too. As for the calculated daily time, I also agree. It is chaos in between matches, not to mention drunkness :lol:

However, I believe we should consider cut off although no other system is including it. The reason is that Swiss system defines the number of matches to be played in accordance with the number of players (in our case teams). As X-Wing allows for a higher number of matches per day, optimal number of teams for 5 games is 32. In this way best teams will meet in the last game. For 6 games it is 64 teams, 7 matches 128 teams, and so on. Honestly, we should be very happy if we manage to gather 32 teams. But as we don't want to play just one day and it perfectly makes sense to play 4 matches per day, we need to come up with a solution to play more matches. Play-off is a plausible solution. I am not sure just playing 3 more matches would solve the thing.
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Toffolone
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Re: X-wing format discussion

Postby Toffolone » Wed Sep 16, 2015 8:34 am

Ok maybe we should first see how many teams we will have then take a decision on number of matches.

We can also decide in case of few teams that each team plays against all the Others if there are no more than 10 teams. (it means nine turns, 5 first day plus 4 on the second day) . In that case no reason to have a top 4 or top 8.

Also because a playoff round with direct elimination, although thrilling for the teams that go on, is not so exciting for the teams not playing. And you cannot even follow the matches on top tables because there are 6 tables to watch and a lot of people around....

Toffolone
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Re: X-wing format discussion

Postby Toffolone » Thu Sep 17, 2015 7:38 am

Well apparently FFG is a step Beyond us...At least regardiong half points for large ships
(ref. NEw FAQ and tournament rules from FFG page) .
T.

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Re: X-wing format discussion

Postby jagosaja » Fri Sep 18, 2015 5:18 am

Hahaha, things really seem to go your way :D

Now it does make sense to include that rule.
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Toffolone
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Re: X-wing format discussion

Postby Toffolone » Fri Sep 18, 2015 8:00 am

it is not "my way". It is the way a lot of people thinks. I put out that idea because I felt people all over the xwing community was not happy with the spam of large ships in the recent tournaments.
And the idea of conceding half points came out on FFG forum.
Also the different point system is something required by people during tournaments.
For me it is only wrong that wether you win by solid or modified vicotry, you either get 5 or 3 points. But the loser still gets 0. in other words what stops the loser from conceding you a full victory since it doesnot change anything for him? (before you say, losing by 11 points or losing by 12 points is not much difference in terms of MOV).
Therefore I thought more steps in the point system will be better.
T.

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Re: X-wing format discussion

Postby jagosaja » Fri Sep 18, 2015 4:23 pm

Relax buddy, it was a joke :)
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