When should we address the EW or MW problem?

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When should we address the EW or MW problem?

Postby TheTonyDavis » Thu Jan 25, 2018 6:06 am

I know we voted that it should stay EW. That vote was largely done with most of us having little to no V4 experience. So, when do we look into switching to V4 MW? How many teams do we have to cancel before we start looking at a change? For me, it should happen now.
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Re: When should we address the EW or MW problem?

Postby graham » Thu Jan 25, 2018 6:41 am

I'd prefer it to stay with EW for a number of reasons. First, MW has a far smaller range of lists available. Then there is the time involved in making such a decision in the ETC structure. I don't want to arrive at Easter and then have to start the discussion about how to make MW work in the ETC structure, with questions about whether or not to allow the use of the various options cards.
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Re: When should we address the EW or MW problem?

Postby 96mgb » Thu Jan 25, 2018 6:47 am

It it was to be looked at it has to happen now. There are teams that may then be able to get players to attend but as Graham says people are buying armies already.
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Re: When should we address the EW or MW problem?

Postby TheTonyDavis » Thu Jan 25, 2018 9:24 am

Do you want 10 teams and alot of briefings choose from or 10 teams and 20 briefings to choose from? The rest is easily sorted. And 40K did it all after their rules released in May last year. For me, that is an easy answer. Bc in the end its about hanging out with everyone that is the bigger priority.
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Re: When should we address the EW or MW problem?

Postby TheMarko » Thu Jan 25, 2018 10:15 am

We all knew this is going to be sacrificial ETC due to rules change. People weighed in pros and cons and voted for current setting. I understand that there are many unhappy campers, and there would also be some if the vote went the other way in the first place. If a captain believes that this is going to change things drastically, he can always summon support of other captains and ask for a change. Mind You that people have already invested their time, money and energy into the EW setting, if the change occurs, none of those will be happy about it.

My personal opinion is to leave things as they are. The damage is done already.
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Re: When should we address the EW or MW problem?

Postby M1le » Thu Jan 25, 2018 12:12 pm

It's way too late to change the system. People have already bought minis and started preparing. It's a transition year so let's make the best of it. Think on the bright side: it's going to be the easiest year to get to the podium as some really good nations dropped out :P
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Re: When should we address the EW or MW problem?

Postby olympia » Thu Jan 25, 2018 12:17 pm

After last year I immediately said that we should do MW. Dog's on the street knew EW and LW were broken in V4. But no, a small but vocal group pushed EW and so here we are--those who pushed for EW should be publicly flogged, can I get captains' support for a vote on that?
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Re: When should we address the EW or MW problem?

Postby 96mgb » Thu Jan 25, 2018 12:21 pm

Both sides make good points. I’ll be honest I’d love to see MW but while everyone of your players not effected by work reasons would be up for it we would still need more to proceed. I can’t say if other countries have dropped out mainly due Lw/EW sitting as a kind of V3.8? As some said we had a vote.

If a captain wants to call a vote to change then I am happy to back it. Better to put it to bed if there is actual feeling about it and if it would result in a bigger turn out.

What is worrying is the number of teams who haven’t dropped out but also haven’t really confirmed or commented etc. are they just quiet, struggling or on the fence. Very hard to tell.

Again as mentioned it’s a hard year for ETc regardless of what’s done.
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Re: When should we address the EW or MW problem?

Postby Jonny65 » Thu Jan 25, 2018 9:11 pm

I'm not keen to do a revote. For one thing the result was pretty decisive the last time, and for another, it's getting pretty late in the day to make these types of changes.

That said, if 10 captains demand another vote then I'll run one.
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Re: When should we address the EW or MW problem?

Postby sovietpride » Fri Jan 26, 2018 7:17 pm

This is the result of voting for EW just based on inertia, without taking into account the effects of V4 on the period, and against the advise of well informed gamers...

...nevertheless I think the best guarantee for failure in the ETC 2018 would be opening now a vote to change period, then gathering a new comittee, voting a new rulespack...

...surely you will lose not only time but also many people in the process.
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Re: When should we address the EW or MW problem?

Postby sgt.saunders » Sat Jan 27, 2018 9:39 am

So basically that's not right. Not just a few teams have voted for EW, it was the majority. We could have played V3 too. But even that was not want ed by the majority! So EW V4 was decided. The reason that so few teams will attend is more likely V4. Personally, I can not get used to the game of putting a card next to a 6-pounder ATG to make it a portee. Germany does attend the ETC because nobody plays FOW anymore. In Germany, many have switched to Battlegroup.
Our Grand Tournament always had around 70 registrations. now there are 39 at the moment, only 13 of them are Germans. Thomas and I from Team Greece are currently playing only against each other.

Additionaly, there are only 4 books so no big choice in lists. (that was also a reason for EW)

Appart from that many (and we) have already bought their figures.

Fact is Team Greece would vote for EW!

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Re: When should we address the EW or MW problem?

Postby sgt.saunders » Sat Jan 27, 2018 9:42 am

Or we Play Midwar with the old Books!

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Re: When should we address the EW or MW problem?

Postby 96mgb » Sat Jan 27, 2018 9:51 am

sgt.saunders wrote:So basically that's not right. Not just a few teams have voted for EW, it was the majority. We could have played V3 too. But even that was not want ed by the majority! So EW V4 was decided. The reason that so few teams will attend is more likely V4. Personally, I can not get used to the game of putting a card next to a 6-pounder ATG to make it a portee. Germany does attend the ETC because nobody plays FOW anymore. In Germany, many have switched to Battlegroup.
Our Grand Tournament always had around 70 registrations. now there are 39 at the moment, only 13 of them are Germans. Thomas and I from Team Greece are currently playing only against each other.

Additionaly, there are only 4 books so no big choice in lists. (that was also a reason for EW)

Appart from that many (and we) have already bought their figures.

Fact is Team Greece would vote for EW!


I thought you guys weren’t going this year (which is a great shame as team Greece is a great group!)
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Re: When should we address the EW or MW problem?

Postby sovietpride » Sat Jan 27, 2018 11:41 am

I was a bit confused with the previous post... are team Germany and team Greece going to attend to the ETC 2018 or not.

In Spain there is no date for the qualifier... here also V4 has killed most of the enthusiasm in FOW... hope a team can be formed, but nothing is guaranteed at the moment.
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Re: When should we address the EW or MW problem?

Postby Arkon » Sat Jan 27, 2018 2:15 pm

Team Greece will attend, Team Germany not
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Re: When should we address the EW or MW problem?

Postby 96mgb » Sat Jan 27, 2018 3:24 pm

Right sorry getting confused!
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Re: When should we address the EW or MW problem?

Postby Trick08 » Mon Jan 29, 2018 12:14 am

Mmmmm

Seems like it is going to be a pretty small event, long way for us to come for a small event, so we have some growing reservations in our team with this kind of talk.

Maybe we all jus need to have a year off without penalty to let FOW settle back into a decent place...or not...and focus on making 2019 a great FOW year?

To be honest it would not feel right to play with some of the Big Guns out.

I call for a vote to cancel FOW at ETC for 2018 and to have a lay over for all teams to 2019.

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Re: When should we address the EW or MW problem?

Postby Arkon » Mon Jan 29, 2018 7:06 am

Sorry, were is the sence in having such a vote? If you dont want to attend then just dont attend. Please dont ask for a permission to do so.

As it seems rather clear that we will not change the periode the only change that seems doable (if we want a change at all rather than just keep going) is to have the ETC with V3 once more.

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Re: When should we address the EW or MW problem?

Postby TheMarko » Mon Jan 29, 2018 7:11 am

Year off without penalty is allowed per charter. Any team that took participation in at least one of the last two ETC-s has a say in everything.

That is unless You already have plans to use this rule and skip 2019? :-k :-D
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Re: When should we address the EW or MW problem?

Postby sovietpride » Mon Jan 29, 2018 8:02 am

Dont fool yourself Trick... if we cancel the FOW ETC this year it will be almost impossible to get back on tracks in 2019... better join the X-Wing scene or start building a battlegroup ETC in that case.

Im just amused of how many teams voted blindly and in a rush for V4 and EW last august... for those that have some knowledge of the subject this was the worst possible solution... and later in the most irresponsable manner they drop off at the first chance when it becames obvious that is impossible to play EW with the V4 pastiche, something that was transparent to anyone that have used just a few minutes in reading the documents.

If in the ETC things were done reasonably we would go back to V3, a stable, mature, reliable and proven game system... unfortunatly such sensible propossal will be almost impossible to succed with our flawed decision making process.
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Re: When should we address the EW or MW problem?

Postby M1le » Mon Jan 29, 2018 9:59 am

ETC FOW has to proceed as normal, otherwise the charter will be lost. I don't see a reason to cancel it. If you don't wish to attend that's perfectly fine, but proposing a cancellation isn't. I am sure there will be more than 10 teams present and that's still perfectly fine to make it work. TBH it isn't EW that's killing the scene, it's V.4 in general and the way BF handled its implementation. Playing MW without the Eastern front books would be silly.
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Re: When should we address the EW or MW problem?

Postby Lynx » Mon Jan 29, 2018 10:18 am

sovietpride wrote:Dont fool yourself Trick... if we cancel the FOW ETC this year it will be almost impossible to get back on tracks in 2019... better join the X-Wing scene or start building a battlegroup ETC in that case.

Im just amused of how many teams voted blindly and in a rush for V4 and EW last august... for those that have some knowledge of the subject this was the worst possible solution... and later in the most irresponsable manner they drop off at the first chance when it becames obvious that is impossible to play EW with the V4 pastiche, something that was transparent to anyone that have used just a few minutes in reading the documents.

If in the ETC things were done reasonably we would go back to V3, a stable, mature, reliable and proven game system... unfortunatly such sensible propossal will be almost impossible to succed with our flawed decision making process.


Soviet please stop this nonsense... there was no rush in August. It was a "prevote" that has been confirmed by the official vote afterwards so nothing to say on this side.
Fact is that we all knew that 2018 would be a sacrifical year and that with V4 issues and changes some of the well known players would drop off.
What is happening now is more that the old Fow community is not getting used to V4 and that the renewal will take some time.
So basically we are in the same situation de WFB was. Is WFB dead? No si leave it some time accept that this year will be a bit shabby (as 2016 could have been with mid war) and we will be back on track in 2019.

So far guys hold fast take care of your community renewal and everthing will be ok.

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Re: When should we address the EW or MW problem?

Postby 96mgb » Mon Jan 29, 2018 10:34 am

While his language is perhaps a bit spicy I do understand wheresoviet is coming from. A number of us who has some pre knowledge of V4 and knew what was coming and not coming for it said wait until after Xmas for the period and version vote. Allow the communities to settle and then do a considered pick having had a chance to try everything. Instead we rushed into a vote soon after the ETc and now after Xmas we are now seeing this conversation happen.

However I agree with others that it’s better to just sit out and let it proceed. However if there are only a few teams then I worry we will lose our place in 2019 anyway?
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Re: When should we address the EW or MW problem?

Postby sovietpride » Mon Jan 29, 2018 2:33 pm

At least the WHF ETC gamers were sensible enough to ignore AOS and adapt the 9th age as their reference ruleset.

Of course V4 is having a horrible impact on the FOW tournament scene... after all its a version hardly tested, not ment for tournament play but rather casual games, with no internal balance and that was adapted to EW and LW as an after thought.

But EW books are probably the worst suited for playing a V4 tournament.

Ive witness the whole process in which ETC FOW adopted EW V4 in the most reckless manner:

-First the actual decision was taken during 2017 ETC, with out any real discussion and with most captains having no actual knowledge of the interaction between V4 and EW lists.

-A few weeks latter a formal vote took place, but since there was no real debate captains just ratified august poll decision by inertia.

-A comittee is created that approaches the rulespack with a fatalistic mindset.

-The rulespack is voted with very low participation.

-Suddenly many teams start bailing out of the tournament because (not surprinsingly) EW V4 is not popular at their home countries.

-A member of the comittee propose to reconsider all the previous decisions and open a new protracted and convoluted voting process.

If someone wanted to boicot on porpose the ETC FOW, they wouldnt have done a better job.

I only hope this great mess is cleared up quickly so that the FOW gamers in Spain that still have the will to attend to the ETC have a place to go and that the actual tournament rules are stablish beforehand with enough time.
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Re: When should we address the EW or MW problem?

Postby 96mgb » Mon Jan 29, 2018 2:44 pm

I think what you say is so what correct however I think the committee did exactly what was asked of them so it’s unfair to target them.

In essence you can

A. Continue as planned
B. Switch to EW V3
C. Switch to V4 Lw
D. Switch to V4 Mw
E. As trick said make a collective decision to skip a year

I’m not saying which of those should occur but if there is to be a Vote then those seem the options.

Skipping a year seems incrediable unfair in those who have booked flIghts and hotels. What’s needed is a solution (whatever it is) which maximizes attendance.

I mean what teams are def confirmed?
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Re: When should we address the EW or MW problem?

Postby Tenente Paco » Mon Jan 29, 2018 2:45 pm

I will be happy swtich to V4 and vote for it.
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Re: When should we address the EW or MW problem?

Postby Lynx » Mon Jan 29, 2018 5:10 pm

sovietpride wrote:At least the WHF ETC gamers were sensible enough to ignore AOS and adapt the 9th age as their reference ruleset.


Soviet it is way more complicated than that! GW had killed Warhammer battle and created a new game, 9th age was a way to keep what was known and playable. This is not what happens to FOW

sovietpride wrote:Of course V4 is having a horrible impact on the FOW tournament scene... after all its a version hardly tested, not ment for tournament play but rather casual games, with no internal balance and that was adapted to EW and LW as an after thought.

But EW books are probably the worst suited for playing a V4 tournament.


EW was the best choice possible for a V4 that was either poorly provided at that time in MID or totally broken in LW.

sovietpride wrote:Ive witness the whole process in which ETC FOW adopted EW V4 in the most reckless manner:

-First the actual decision was taken during 2017 ETC, with out any real discussion and with most captains having no actual knowledge of the interaction between V4 and EW lists.


You were not alone at Salamanca... We had a talk on what was going on and had a clear statement of what option were available, the majority has chosen for what looked the safest way to ensure an ETC 2018

sovietpride wrote:-A few weeks latter a formal vote took place, but since there was no real debate captains just ratified august poll decision by inertia.

The official vote was called after people had time to rethink what was said at the ETC and turned out the same as at the ETC nothing to object here.

sovietpride wrote:-A comittee is created that approaches the rulespack with a fatalistic mindset.

Can't let this one like that! the committee did what had to be done to ensure the survival of FOW at the ETC! the changing V4 brought had to lead to a reconsideration of the FOW ETC concept and that's what we did (yes, "we" as I was part of it and glade to have done it)

sovietpride wrote:-The rulespack is voted with very low participation.

Where's your point? there are lot of vote with low participation. not happy with it? change the charter... but on the rulepack there have been 15 votes... 2017 at Salamanca there were 23 teams if I recall right so I don't see a low participation as this represent more than 50%...

sovietpride wrote:-Suddenly many teams start bailing out of the tournament because (not surprinsingly) EW V4 is not popular at their home countries.

Teams bailing out is not due to EW at the ETC it is due to V4 mainly we all lost many players as they don't recognize themselves anymore in the game, it's true V4 is a big change.

Reconsider one thing, once again we all knew what would happen, this year will be a hard one as there are big changes, let's keep things as they are even if it looks sad for the number of attenders, it will be better next year for sure.
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Re: When should we address the EW or MW problem?

Postby sovietpride » Mon Jan 29, 2018 6:46 pm

Apart from the fact that we were 26 FOW teams in Salamanca last year... you have convince me Lynx, we live in the best possible world and nothing else could have be done.

Hope the event can be maintain in 2018, nevertheless.
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Re: When should we address the EW or MW problem?

Postby Dirkhrod » Mon Jan 29, 2018 11:04 pm

I must subscribe to everything that Lynx has said. We knew from the beginning that this year was going to be sacrificial and transitional, we knew that EW was the best solution for use with the "transitional rules", and we also knew that keeping V3 for an additional year would also have meant serious problems in participation, as most tournament players have moved on to V4.

I think just looking for negatives and stirring up a negative atmosphere that actually leads teams to distrust the validity of this year's event is harmful. For instance, the fact that Australia is considering dropping out because of a perceived lack of quality teams is disturbing. Australia themselves are a top team, so their absence will only enhance the problem. I do hope they reconsider, although I know it's a serious effort to travel to Zagreb for them.

We should truly see this tournament as an opportunity for a more fun and relaxed atmosphere, as indeed the game will probably not be to the level of previous years, but it's Early War, it's still dynamic and fun and we should all try to make the best of it, while we hope 2019 will truly mean the transition to a serious V4 tournament. It's really a pity that some people seem to be on a personal vendetta against either the committee (who has done a very good job of putting together a coherent rulespack) or against other members of the community. Please understand that our purpose here is not to be at eachother's throats because we don't agree with the pairing system (I am a captain and I do pairings, still, it's just f***ing pairings, no reason to miss an ETC over), but to actually mitigate the negative effects of diminishing player pools and increasing distrust in the game, in the aftermath of the transition to V4.

Personally, I like V4, I like the way the game works for EW and I think it has become a more subtle, more dynamic game. But that is just my opinion and not relevant to the issue. What is relevant is that our purpose on this forum is to MAKE ETC 2018 WORK. Fundamental changes like playing MW with only North Africa will not make it work. It will alienate players who will (justifiably) decide we are not serious and that the ETC is simply not worth their time and effort. It will pee many off from those currently willing to attend, without bringing any serious replacements on board.

Let's just get on with what has been decided and let each of us promote and support the ETC in our communities so interest is as high as possible. And in August, let's just have a great time in Zagreb and give a proper farewell to these old EW books who have now survived through 3 editions. I know this may sound as "positive drivel", but it's not. Because the alternative is ruining this ETC for everybody and, possibly, forever.
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Re: When should we address the EW or MW problem?

Postby Trick08 » Tue Jan 30, 2018 1:43 am

Well that got folk talking didn't it;-)

I love V4 MW it is the best FOW version IMO...I admit I voted for V4 and would love for I to be the system we use at ETC. I know the lists would be limited but maybe not as much as we think. I did manage to get the M14/14 platoon pre-released for use a cons and Avanti is out next week, new British book may also come out in time. We could ask BF to give us early access to the Soviet stuff, if I could get it would peeps want to re-examine changing the period?

Also just wanted to say that IMO no one is to blame for this situation and I feel the committee did a great job getting us ready for EW (and it does work but not as well as MW), it players numbers at events that is hurting us over here, Cancon our big national generally gets 100+ Flames players for MW/LW and the Campaign, last weekend I TOed to 20 for MW and there were 8 doing EWin the Campaign...LW was cancelled.:-(

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