ETC 2018 Rulespack Comitee results

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Re: ETC 2018 Rulespack Comitee results

Postby Rugi » Tue Jan 09, 2018 10:59 am

tomizlav wrote:Some questions on multiple and allied formations:

1) Are the two provided pdfs for norwegians and dutch stand alone or an addition to an EW-book?
The reason for this question is the amount of allied french and british platoons you are able to take in this lists. How do these platoons qualifiy to take an allied formation out of e.g. Blitzkrieg?
In my opinon, and in accordance to p.8 of the rulebook, this has to be decided on "historical divisional background". Taking this into account the dutch should be able take four different french formations out of Blitzkrieg as allies, as the french 7th Army was stationed in the Netherlands. The Norwegians on the other hand have been supported by specially formed divisions consisting of french and british units and therefore cannot take them as allied formations out of the simple reason that they do not exist ruleswise.

2) Does the british armoured platoon from p.151 available to some french lists in blitzkrieg qualifiy them to take an armoured regiment as an allied formation?
The platoon has a seperate entry in the french section even though it is the same as on p.119 with restictions on size and type of tank.
(Curiosly the adressed armoured regiment can take allied french formations because the platoons available to them are taken out of the french section of the book)

3) it is stated in the provided rulespack, that Barbarossa and Barbarossa digital are treated as the same source.
What about the finnish panssari out of Barbarossa digital? Can they be used with rising sun and vice versa?


1.) PDFs are not linked to a book so unless you can take another formation from the same PDF then you cannot. The only exception is the Barbarossa digital and Barbarossa.

The rule on selecting multiple companies is determined on page 2 of the rulespack.

You can field more than one formation, but can only have Divisional/Corps support units from one company. See page 8 of the EW rulebook. In addition, multiple formations must follow the following rules:
• Formations must be from the same intelligence handbook (book or PDF). Barbarossa and Barbarossa digital are considered to be the same handbook for this purpose.
• In order to take a second company (or subsequent 3rd, 4th etc.) you must be able to take a combat unit of the second company as a support option for the first company. Your second company must contain at least one unit of that support option if there are different options. You may take a second company of the same type as the first, even if there is no option to take a combat platoon as a support.


2.) Is this platoon on pg. 151 a combat platoon for any british formation? If yes, then yes, otherwise no. Armored regiment does not have this platoon amongst its combat platoons

3.) Barbarossa and Rising sun are not the same books and hence one cannot combined formations in the same force from these two sources.

I hope I helped
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Postby tomizlav » Tue Jan 09, 2018 6:36 pm

Thank you for yor fast reply, Rugi.

With this clarifications/decisions we can go on with list building :)
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Re: ETC 2018 Rulespack Comitee results

Postby sovietpride » Wed Jan 10, 2018 9:52 am

96mgb wrote:
sovietpride wrote:Banzai and Gung Ho are LW books altough there are some «pacific war» points which happen to be equal to the EW points... but that dosent turn those into proper EW books.

Japs have the rissing sun book available for EW... and the US forces in Guam in 1941 arent represented by the Gung Ho list (which use a much different 1944-45 organisation) on any sense.


Not so when. Official PDF was released to convert the correct units to Ew.


Yep an «official» document in which it says that automatic rifles and r/mgs werent introduce until MW dates and since there are no options for including combat platoons with regular rifles in Gong Hu you cant field any forces from that book.

Thats only one of the problems of ussing a LW book in EW.
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Re: ETC 2018 Rulespack Comitee results

Postby TheMarko » Wed Jan 10, 2018 1:17 pm

sovietpride wrote:Yep an «official» document in which it says that automatic rifles and r/mgs werent introduce until MW dates and since there are no options for including combat platoons with regular rifles in Gong Hu you cant field any forces from that book.


I think You are misinterpreting this. It says that Automatic rifles rule does not work, thus all rifle teams have regular rifles and not automatic.
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Re: ETC 2018 Rulespack Comitee results

Postby 96mgb » Wed Jan 10, 2018 7:42 pm

I’ll be honest I think few people would even want gung ho with the very limited options of EW. However that doesn’t mean the option shouldn’t be there and also it shouldn’t affect the inclusion of Banzai especially to simulate the ‘forgotten’ war vs the commonwealth in the Far East. I actually find it rather sad that we would write off a whole area of Early war apparently just because the Japanese have smoke and will be hard in night attack.

On the flip side they do t auto attack and are screwed vs tanks as the AT Inf teams now only hit the team in base to base contact with their 3 attacks not any tank within 3 inches. Good luck vs the inbreakable tankovy....
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Re: ETC 2018 Rulespack Comitee results

Postby sovietpride » Thu Jan 11, 2018 9:00 am

TheMarko wrote:
sovietpride wrote:Yep an «official» document in which it says that automatic rifles and r/mgs werent introduce until MW dates and since there are no options for including combat platoons with regular rifles in Gong Hu you cant field any forces from that book.


I think You are misinterpreting this. It says that Automatic rifles rule does not work, thus all rifle teams have regular rifles and not automatic.


I doubt very much that people will remember this during actual gameplay... since the forces document would still say «automatic rifles»... then again forces document will have wrong points, wrong unit organization and wrong stats for weapons... so it dosent up much to the standard mess.

Aniway, compared with the many cases on which infantry forces will be forced to attack tank forces due to the perverse and complex paring system propossed for this year and having a complex and full of mistakes list delivery system is something minor.
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Re: ETC 2018 Rulespack Comitee results

Postby Mongol » Thu Jan 11, 2018 12:01 pm

Will gladly see banzai allowed.
'Cause actually nobody plays Pacific in Russia, but if ETC would allow it, than it would be possible to see them on local tournaments too.
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Re: ETC 2018 Rulespack Comitee results

Postby 96mgb » Thu Jan 11, 2018 6:42 pm

Anything that encourages an important part of the war to be recognized is good in my book.
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Re: ETC 2018 Rulespack Comitee results

Postby Reksio » Thu Jan 11, 2018 9:01 pm

sovietpride wrote:
TheMarko wrote:
sovietpride wrote:Yep an «official» document in which it says that automatic rifles and r/mgs werent introduce until MW dates and since there are no options for including combat platoons with regular rifles in Gong Hu you cant field any forces from that book.


I think You are misinterpreting this. It says that Automatic rifles rule does not work, thus all rifle teams have regular rifles and not automatic.


I doubt very much that people will remember this during actual gameplay... since the forces document would still say «automatic rifles»... then again forces document will have wrong points, wrong unit organization and wrong stats for weapons... so it dosent up much to the standard mess.

Aniway, compared with the many cases on which infantry forces will be forced to attack tank forces due to the perverse and complex paring system propossed for this year and having a complex and full of mistakes list delivery system is something minor.


Do not use infantry forces then - easy.
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Re: ETC 2018 Rulespack Comitee results

Postby sovietpride » Thu Jan 11, 2018 10:52 pm

Yep... the fact that you can field six Tank or six Infantry companies dosent open room to any abuse.
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Re: ETC 2018 Rulespack Comitee results

Postby Rugi » Fri Jan 12, 2018 6:24 am

Considering it's the first ETC of the V4 and the meta has not yet developed and settled down, there is always room for abuse.

If you can however present a case of such abuse we might have been able to actually discuss and solve it
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Re: ETC 2018 Rulespack Comitee results

Postby sovietpride » Fri Jan 12, 2018 9:50 am

Well its certainly difficult to argue against the notion that «the system is broken, we cant prevent abuse».

If the adaptation of V4 creates a level of uncertainty perhaps is not the best option to introduce a new paring system that is neither in V4 nor in the ETC tradition, nor has been tested by anyone.

The way you are implementing the battle plans (which is a system to select missions mainly) is completelly arbitrary... its effects hard to determine, the only thing thats sure is that introduces a new level of complexity (ie selecting plan for every army for every mission) for an already complex pairing system... that would surely mean more time lost and giving more importance to the esoteric pairing phase rather than the actual gameplay.

If you really embrace V4 you should use battle plans as a whole... if you are shy to have players having different missions (for no reason, since balance seems not no be a concern of the comitte) then use battleplans to select attacker or defender but after players have been paired... its a much more simple solution, quicker, less open to abuse and that gives more natural attack-defend selection.
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Re: ETC 2018 Rulespack Comitee results

Postby 96mgb » Fri Jan 12, 2018 11:22 am

I some what agree. Our team are not supportive of the new match up process. It is to complex and places too much on planning and not enough on the games. ETc has tradionally been a balance.

EW isn’t proper V4 it’s a hybrid sticky plaster. That’s why the old match up process could have been lifted. All the lists are still rated Inf, mech, tank so we could have used a balanced, tried and tested approach. Then next year got Mw made a jump to a new system when V4 has settled more.

In essence we could easily have had a neat solution with V4 but with the V3 match up. So simple and removes a lot of heart argue and arguments.
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Re: ETC 2018 Rulespack Comitee results

Postby Reksio » Fri Jan 12, 2018 8:02 pm

Guys, it is very easy - vote against the rulespack then if you do not agree to it. The formula that was proposed was that we put something together, you vote. If we did hurt your feelings, then simply vote 'no'. The timeframe requested did not allow for endless discussions - we did our best, your votes are there to judge.
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Re: ETC 2018 Rulespack Comitee results

Postby 96mgb » Fri Jan 12, 2018 9:11 pm

As it stands we will be. However as per the official EYc FB page the link here is for the rule pack “debate”.

At least some more people have commented now at one stage it seemed only 2 teams were actually engaged.

I agree though it needs a vote as committee has decided and it needs to be accepted or rejected.
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Re: ETC 2018 Rulespack Comitee results

Postby Reksio » Fri Jan 12, 2018 10:02 pm

96mgb wrote:As it stands we will be. However as per the official EYc FB page the link here is for the rule pack “debate”.

At least some more people have commented now at one stage it seemed only 2 teams were actually engaged.

I agree though it needs a vote as committee has decided and it needs to be accepted or rejected.



Yeah, true - it would be better to have more opinions. Otherwise we risk endless iterations or ragequitting :)
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Re: ETC 2018 Rulespack Comitee results

Postby TheTonyDavis » Sat Jan 13, 2018 6:01 am

sovietpride wrote:Well its certainly difficult to argue against the notion that «the system is broken, we cant prevent abuse».

(for no reason, since balance seems not no be a concern of the comitte)


This is the precisely the reason I am stepping down from the committee. These comments and many above from him are not constructive and a shining example of the type of negativity that surrounds ever doing anything in a committee. I recommend, Jorge, you educate yourself and view the comments we all made in the discussions on the FB chats bc they were done with balance in mine!!! This comment is BS!

This process is a farce. The committee was supposed to be made to eliminate endless debates. Its been nearly two months since we provided our pack and nothing happened. Just endless debate. Not civil debate. Endless though. What was the purpose?!?!?!
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Re: ETC 2018 Rulespack Comitee results

Postby 96mgb » Sat Jan 13, 2018 6:30 am

Tony it needs to go to vote. However the whole forum seems pretty dead. I’m not sure if that is a reflection in interest in FOW as a whole or just time of year.

Who is it that starts the vote?

Anyway when has ETc ever had anything but endless debate :)
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Re: ETC 2018 Rulespack Comitee results

Postby M1le » Sat Jan 13, 2018 10:00 am

The forum is dead because of the time of the year. It's the same story every year. It will get back to active at the end of March/April. :P
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Re: ETC 2018 Rulespack Comitee results

Postby sovietpride » Sat Jan 13, 2018 2:48 pm

Tony, I recommend you learn to quote... not isolated phrases but what people are actually saying.

The point is:

-Why use a list submission format (IE-Forces) which is not compatible with V4 and therefore will make list revision a nightmare?

-Why select a pairing system that is cumbersome, time consuming, complex, untested, open to abuse and unrelated to V4 rules?

If members of the comitee cannot answer this simple and legit questions is perhaps better than they quit.
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Re: ETC 2018 Rulespack Comitee results

Postby 96mgb » Sat Jan 13, 2018 5:25 pm

Very simple question and I need clarification

Are we using the new more mission way of taking an objective

Yes or no.

Need this for vote.
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Re: ETC 2018 Rulespack Comitee results

Postby TheTonyDavis » Sun Jan 14, 2018 3:14 am

sovietpride wrote:Tony, I recommend you learn to quote... not isolated phrases but what people are actually saying.

The point is:

-Why use a list submission format (IE-Forces) which is not compatible with V4 and therefore will make list revision a nightmare?

-Why select a pairing system that is cumbersome, time consuming, complex, untested, open to abuse and unrelated to V4 rules?

If members of the comitee cannot answer this simple and legit questions is perhaps better than they quit.


It’s simple, Jorge, if you don’t mean to be insulting with nearly every single post you make to the committee members then stop insulting them. You did it above again!

As to your questions, we didn’t have any discussion on list submission format and why it was included in the rules pack that the supposed whole committee debated on and provided isn’t something I can speak to. But what format would you recommend lists be submitted? Or are you solely just here to complain and offer no solutions?

As to the pairing process, the debates as to why we chose what we chose is clearly debated in the FB thread that we intentionally left open to everyone for view. Why do you insist on insulting us and commenting out of ignorance on a topic you are commenting on?!?!?! Go view the debates and stop making ASSumptions!
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Re: ETC 2018 Rulespack Comitee results

Postby 96mgb » Sun Jan 14, 2018 3:45 am

Tony do you know the answer to my question?
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Re: ETC 2018 Rulespack Comitee results

Postby TheTonyDavis » Sun Jan 14, 2018 4:02 am

The more missions PDF wasn’t a topic of discussion for the committee. Honestly, mission selection never is a part of the initial rulespack. That is always a mid May vote and I don’t see why that would be different this year. I am not sure why that wasn’t a satisfactory answer on December 17th?

PS: The more missions PDF came out less than a month after we were to submit our rulespack. They definitely wasn’t enough time to know what the changes meant for the ETC. Now a couple months later it’s clear to me the more missions objective capture and defense is a great change to V4 and good for ETC and the ‘sit back and shell with arty for thirty turns’ meta.
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Re: ETC 2018 Rulespack Comitee results

Postby sovietpride » Sun Jan 14, 2018 7:08 am

Well Tony we are voting on the list sudmission format because thats part of the propossed rulespack... its a bit embarrasing that this wasnt even considered by the committe and the result is propossing a Forces format that is updated and will result in a nightmare for list revision.

If the committe didnt have time to consider this issue they should have this part of the rulespack open for further consideration... then someone could have developed a proper list sudmission format... but since everything has to be voted together in the most undemocratic manner this wont be possible.

Regarding the pairing system well I dont have FB so I cant read your enlightening debate... thats why I ask for answers here based on what have been posted.

The final result is certainly underwhelming... the pairing system of the ETC was already extremely complex and many teams didnt have a full grasp over it but somehow you have manage to add a layer of complexity by adding a battle plan pre-selection round.

In regards to alleged insults... they only exist in your mind Tony.
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Re: ETC 2018 Rulespack Comitee results

Postby 96mgb » Sun Jan 14, 2018 9:29 am

TheTonyDavis wrote:The more missions PDF wasn’t a topic of discussion for the committee. Honestly, mission selection never is a part of the initial rulespack. That is always a mid May vote and I don’t see why that would be different this year. I am not sure why that wasn’t a satisfactory answer on December 17th?

PS: The more missions PDF came out less than a month after we were to submit our rulespack. They definitely wasn’t enough time to know what the changes meant for the ETC. Now a couple months later it’s clear to me the more missions objective capture and defense is a great change to V4 and good for ETC and the ‘sit back and shell with arty for thirty turns’ meta.



Tony thanks.

Sorry it’s hard to see the wood for the trees on this tread to remember that had been posted.
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Re: ETC 2018 Rulespack Comitee results

Postby graham » Sun Jan 14, 2018 1:59 pm

mgb - in the round of comments in December, you asked if "More Missions" would be used. It is such an obviously good idea that I integrated it into the revised rulespack and posted on this thread to say that I had done it. That is the version that people are voting on.
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Re: ETC 2018 Rulespack Comitee results

Postby 96mgb » Sun Jan 14, 2018 2:51 pm

Thanks graham.
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Re: ETC 2018 Rulespack Comitee results

Postby Rugi » Wed Jan 17, 2018 1:08 pm

sovietpride wrote:Well Tony we are voting on the list sudmission format because thats part of the propossed rulespack... its a bit embarrasing that this wasnt even considered by the committe and the result is propossing a Forces format that is updated and will result in a nightmare for list revision.

If the committe didnt have time to consider this issue they should have this part of the rulespack open for further consideration... then someone could have developed a proper list sudmission format... but since everything has to be voted together in the most undemocratic manner this wont be possible.

Regarding the pairing system well I dont have FB so I cant read your enlightening debate... thats why I ask for answers here based on what have been posted.



I have explained why we cannot post the entire conversation from the Facebook group to the forum and I find it very time innefficient to ask about everything that had already been discussed again even after we asked everyone to inform themselves about the topic they are commenting to avoid this very situation.
I am sure we can create a nameless facebook account for those that cannot create their blank facebook account to use to check out the conversation. If you send me your email I can create it today myself.

List format: I still fail to see the problem.

1.) Create the lists as before
1a.) Add a note next to each unit that requires a points reduction (i.e. "Cmd Rifle -5 Pts; TOTAL 70 PTS")
2.) Assign a # to each formation (i.e. "John Smith; FoW Australia; Formation #1 ___ John Smith; FoW Australia; Formation #2")
3.) Save everything as PDF and use this website to merge multiple PDFs https://www.pdfmerge.com/
4.) Lists can be displayed online exactly as they were in the previous years

Please point out potential issues.
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Re: ETC 2018 Rulespack Comitee results

Postby sovietpride » Thu Jan 18, 2018 6:13 pm

Rugi wrote:
Please point out potential issues.


Apart from the fact that you are sudmitting a format with two point cost for most units (one incorrect and one correct but that you must add manually), that Forces list teams that cant be field and that the stats (airplanes, rocket launchers...) are incorrect I can see no issues.

Frankly its a joke proposing an outdated and full of mistakes format for sudmitting over a 100 lists... a serious organization would create his own template for list sudmissiob unless they want all sort of mistakes taking place during the tournament.
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