ETC 2018 Rulespack Comitee results

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ETC 2018 Rulespack Comitee results

Postby Doktor Helge » Sat Nov 25, 2017 8:13 pm

Hello
We set a deadline for the 25th of november for the comitee to make a suggestion for how to adapt ETC into V.4
Here are the topics and results of our debates
(Graham is preparing an entire rules pack in a combined pdf it will be more elaborate and with a few minor additions, but this is the main part. Graham will not be back ontil the 27th so I will post the results of the comitee here and now)

V.4 core rules or not ?
We had a debate about this.. there are rules that are more silly in V.4 than in V.3 but if we do start changing the rules just for etc purpose, we will not be playinf FOW and we will loose our comunities and have a whole new world of rules packages that will take MUCH more time to get acceptance of
Therefore the V.4 core rules of the game including the lates updates and LFTF from battlefront will be used

Army list composition
National teams have six lists, one for each player
a single list can be put together from a main formation and support formations according to the rules of the V.4 rulebook
So several formations is allowed pr list

When a player has chosen a formation (for example German Panzer grenadiers) this type of formation and nationality cannot be chosen by any other player on the team (So no other players on the team can choose a german infantry formation). the player who choose the german inf can take another german inf formation as supporting formation to his original inf formantion.. but no other team member can.
This puts the maximum on the number of players who choose a given type of nationality and formation type to one

Only two players on a team can have a Company/formation from the same nation
If the player chooses a support formation this too will be blocked from other team members use (If the player uses a german panzer kompanie as his second formation.. then no other team member can choose a german tank formation)
This limits nations represented to a maximum of two pr team


Missions
V.4 gives the opurtunity for random mission selection. this works well in singæe games. but not as well in a big tournament setting
As captain or referee there Will propably be plenty Of V.4 issues that they need to tend to at the tables, if they have to Also read through a new senario as opposed to the one they themselves are Playing it Will take a lot Of time.
Therefore we will recommend pre selected missions voted on by the captains as usual after lists have been submitted


Attack/Defend Issue
This is propably the most important topic of the group. as v.4 has radically changed from V.3 here
in V.4 you can decide a battleplan (BP) for your list.. and this will be compared to you opponents battle plan to see who attacks and defends
Etc Will use battle plans (BP) with predetermined missions for each round
Each team Gets 2 attack battleplans 2 mobile battleplans ond 2 defensive battleplans.
These BP Will be allocated the the teams lists before pairings.
Allocation Will be done by putting the card Of the respective list into a card pocket marked “Attack” “mobile” or “defend” on the front.
The allocation should be done before the pairings begins, and no later than 5 minutes into the pairings the allocation must be done, otherwise the BP for the team that has not allocated Them to lists Will be randomly determined
Before the matchup/pairings, both teams quickly present their lists. And what battleplans the have been allocated to which lists
Matchup is now done using the system we have used before.. cards are placed face down so the list and its BP is hidded until revealed
the BP repleces the tank>Mech>inf attack priority so now it will be Attack BP>Mobil BP> Defend BP
If two lists with the same BP are matched against each other, a Roll Of Will determine who attacks and who defends
Assigned Battleplans replace tank/Mech/Inf in deciding who attacks and defends

Victory Points
V4 has gone from 7 points in a game to 9 points in a game we will use these, but will keep the Big point/Small point system as it workds very well
Big Points remains
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Re: ETC 2018 Rulespack Comitee results

Postby wyrm » Sun Nov 26, 2017 9:14 am

Hi there,

could You please elaborate, how the comitee results affect the following:

- Allied formations from different nationality:
--> as per v4 rules, these form a separate formation. Oc you could take a complete formation if the support option includes a combat platoon, but you can also go with only those units in the diagram. Now, what formation do these belong to, in terms of formation/nation restrictions?

- PDF lists:
--> there are 2 PDF lists, which have not been added to forces / App yet, the Netherlands and the Norwegian. Are these categorically restricted?

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Re: ETC 2018 Rulespack Comitee results

Postby Doktor Helge » Mon Nov 27, 2017 4:15 pm

I Will try to answer, what I Think you are asking about

Allied formations are allowed
You still have to chose a primary formations first.. and if This list/formation has the option to Pick allied platoons then you Can choose a second formation which has This platoon as a combat platoon

Example
Primary formation
Grey Wolf Hungarian ÖNKÉNTES PUSKÁS SZÁZAD (HONVÉD) inf Company

Support formation Can Now be
Grey Wolf German FELDHERRNHALLE PANZERGRENADIERKOMPANIE
Since their infantry is a support choice for the hungarian inf
Units that cones from This formation Will “belong” to This formation

If you did not opt for a second formation, they would “belong” to the hungarians

But remember that Now you have Also used both hungarian and german infantry option
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Re: ETC 2018 Rulespack Comitee results

Postby wyrm » Mon Nov 27, 2017 5:33 pm

It is not exactly what I meant to ask.
As per v4 RB for EW/LW (will provide page when I'm home), any allied platoons taken will form an allied formation, albeit not counting towards formations on table.
In this case the allied formation can only include platoons from the force diagram.
In Your example there are 6 FHH platoons plus aircraft. These would form a separate allied formation.
What category do these count for?

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Re: ETC 2018 Rulespack Comitee results

Postby graham » Tue Nov 28, 2017 6:32 am

Thanks to Helge for posting a very short summary of our discussions.

Here is the Google docs link to the rulespack that we prepared: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1SWN ... sp=sharing
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Re: ETC 2018 Rulespack Comitee results

Postby 96mgb » Tue Nov 28, 2017 1:05 pm

If the match up process proposed is adopted then an army with a fort needs to be forced to take a defend stance each game. Allowing a fort to attack is open to major abuse and we all know there has been issues with fort abuse before!

Basically under V3 you would y attack due to the auto defend. In this version of you choose attack you can use the fort as a teleport to move your attacking force right next to the defending deployment zone. Then swamp it in turn 1. This wasn’t the intent of the fort and really needs to be looked at.

In sum a formation with a fort should have to pick Defence.
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Re: ETC 2018 Rulespack Comitee results

Postby Mongol » Tue Nov 28, 2017 3:28 pm

Great work gentlemen!
Thanks!

Anybody knows when voting for the rulespack can start?
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Re: ETC 2018 Rulespack Comitee results

Postby 96mgb » Tue Nov 28, 2017 4:55 pm

I would suggest voting waits until people have commented and those have been replied to.
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Re: ETC 2018 Rulespack Comitee results

Postby 96mgb » Tue Nov 28, 2017 9:42 pm

Also I may have missed it but are we playing more missions are rule book missions?
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Re: ETC 2018 Rulespack Comitee results

Postby Jonny65 » Mon Dec 04, 2017 12:16 pm

I don't think that we should allow multiple formations, they may be a part of V4, but the EW books are not. Leaving out multiple formations gets rid of some complications, we could continue to use the 2x inf, 2x mech, 2x tank system, and have attacker based on company type. It also removes the risk of any dubious killer combo lists.

Apart from that, I like how the proposed rulespack looks.
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Re: ETC 2018 Rulespack Comitee results

Postby 96mgb » Mon Dec 04, 2017 7:03 pm

Jonny I’m 100% with what you just said. It’s so neat and easy to do.
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Re: ETC 2018 Rulespack Comitee results

Postby olympia » Mon Dec 04, 2017 9:27 pm

Good work, rulespack committee. Although I agree with others that multiple formations is a bad idea.
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Re: ETC 2018 Rulespack Comitee results

Postby TheTonyDavis » Tue Dec 05, 2017 2:59 am

Single company formations and 2/2/2 team composition is V3, not V4. Given that most missions will result in draws when time runs out the incentive to get all defending matchups is gone and the main reason the 2/2/2 requirement was included. That requirement certainly won’t be possible in MW so either you drop it now or next year. Why not now? This is a new version after all ;)
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Re: ETC 2018 Rulespack Comitee results

Postby Rugi » Tue Dec 05, 2017 12:41 pm

We discussed long and wide about multiple companies. Feel free to check the debate about it.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/123694808314905/?ref=group_header, topic "Number of formations/Companies Allowed"
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Re: ETC 2018 Rulespack Comitee results

Postby Lynx » Tue Dec 05, 2017 2:46 pm

Gentlemen,

As some of you said, I was not for multiformation at start. But as Rugi said check out our discussion about it. I totally support the final choice we made in the comitee. Tony said it, it is part of V4 so no specific reason to forbid multiformation it is part of the new game and should be useable as such.
Futhermore see this as a try and if it is too broken we can still see how to limit it in futur ETCs but for now it should be tested and played as it is.

Last thing is I would like to thank all comitee members for the great job they did to build tho rulepack.

Cheers
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Re: ETC 2018 Rulespack Comitee results

Postby olympia » Tue Dec 05, 2017 8:53 pm

Rugi wrote:We discussed long and wide about multiple companies. Feel free to check the debate about it.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/123694808314905/?ref=group_header, topic "Number of formations/Companies Allowed"


Rugi, your endorsement is certainly encouraging. I'm not on Facebook so could you copy/paste here?
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Re: ETC 2018 Rulespack Comitee results

Postby Jonny65 » Tue Dec 05, 2017 9:53 pm

Yes, multiple formations is V4, and V4 books are made with that in mind (I hope :wink: ), but the majority of EW books are V2.
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Re: ETC 2018 Rulespack Comitee results

Postby 96mgb » Wed Dec 06, 2017 6:43 am

TheTonyDavis wrote:Single company formations and 2/2/2 team composition is V3, not V4. Given that most missions will result in draws when time runs out the incentive to get all defending matchups is gone and the main reason the 2/2/2 requirement was included. That requirement certainly won’t be possible in MW so either you drop it now or next year. Why not now? This is a new version after all ;)



Are we using more missions which I assume but can’t find in the rule pack (I may be going blind!). More missions has massively fixed the draw issue and bought back auto win for defenders.
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Re: ETC 2018 Rulespack Comitee results

Postby 96mgb » Wed Dec 06, 2017 6:45 am

Also I echo that while we are playing V4 we aren’t using V4 books. The multiformations work for Ty and V4 MW which were designed and tested for it. The LW/EW was a fast bolt. So really we are playing V3.8 next year we switch to proper V4.
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Re: ETC 2018 Rulespack Comitee results

Postby Rugi » Wed Dec 06, 2017 7:07 pm

Nothing in EW was designed for V4. Neither points, lists, characters and BF itself apparently neither so we did what we had to do to be consistent in our work.
Again, please see the conversation we had in the facebook group. This way you will see everything we took into account.

Olympia: the whole conversation is apparently too long to be copy pasted in one go (keeps hiding stuff) so I would like to recommend to create a fake facebook account just to check out the conversation.

Edit: Grammar
Last edited by Rugi on Thu Dec 07, 2017 10:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: ETC 2018 Rulespack Comitee results

Postby 96mgb » Wed Dec 06, 2017 10:54 pm

Still looking for an answer on the more missions question and on how you intent to deal with the fort issue which I am sure you have discussed.
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Re: ETC 2018 Rulespack Comitee results

Postby 96mgb » Fri Dec 15, 2017 8:26 am

Any answers, anyone???
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Re: ETC 2018 Rulespack Comitee results

Postby sovietpride » Fri Dec 15, 2017 10:29 am

You should change the Rulespack regarding list submission since neither easy army, forces or fow list are currently correct for V4 lists due to the multiple team rebates.
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Re: ETC 2018 Rulespack Comitee results

Postby Rugi » Fri Dec 15, 2017 1:46 pm

Missions: We need to change Counterattack into Contact. Any other problems with the missions?

Good point about he multiple companies and army list submission.
Basically we have to enable the x number of lists one person can send. I can volunteer to put the multiple company lists together per person into a single PDF to be uploaded online.

I am not sure what would be a better option so feel free to give your own ideas in.

Best
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Re: ETC 2018 Rulespack Comitee results

Postby sovietpride » Sat Dec 16, 2017 12:02 pm

Is not only multiple companies... toal points are also wrong since you have to substract cost of observers, un used command teams etc as per the new rules update.

If you send a list bia forces for instance points wont be ok and would need to be recalculated... therefore is a useless format.
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Re: ETC 2018 Rulespack Comitee results

Postby 96mgb » Sun Dec 17, 2017 7:26 am

Is anyone from the committee keeping an eye on this . It would be great to get an answer.
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Re: ETC 2018 Rulespack Comitee results

Postby TheTonyDavis » Mon Dec 18, 2017 4:09 am

What do you envision us doing with this information? We were tasked with creating a rules pack to submit to the captains council that brings ETC to V4 that is to be approved or not and if not we resume with changes. We were asked to do it as fast as possible and even chastised by some for wanting to see observable results for EW games and yet our work is sitting without then the actions done. A few captains providing input into what changes they would’ve made isn’t a vote. Also, keeping track of a few captains, or all of them even, opinions on the rules pack is exactly why the committee was formed so we didn’t spend endless time debating every minutia in the captains council. And yet here we sit doing exactly what we were supposed to avoid.
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Re: ETC 2018 Rulespack Comitee results

Postby 96mgb » Mon Dec 18, 2017 10:23 am

Tony I’m not asking for changes I’m asking for clarification

Are you proposing more missions (with the new obj rules) or the basic book?

Did you discuss or consider the impact of a fort choosing attack?
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Re: ETC 2018 Rulespack Comitee results

Postby sovietpride » Mon Dec 18, 2017 1:56 pm

Sorry for reading and pointing out a minor inconsistency on the propossed rules pack Tony.

Should I remain silent and vote yes to a document that would surely create tons of confusion and frustration when lists are submitted with incorrect points?

Instead of this passive aggresive answer isnt it better to adress the issues noted and organize a proper vote?

Cant the comitee organice a vote or find someone entitled to do so?
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Re: ETC 2018 Rulespack Comitee results

Postby TheTonyDavis » Tue Dec 19, 2017 7:05 am

Missions have always been decided by a captains council vote in the summer and never part of the initial rulespack. Why would we include them now?

What lists should and shouldn't be able to defend or attack wasn't something we wanted to address because the second you start down that path you open up doors to everything being examined and not part of transitioning ETC to V4, in all honesty. Besides, the more nitpicking stuff like a fort getting to attack or not just puts more minutia into the rules pack and an up or down vote gets confusing what you dont approve of in the end. The more you add now the more reasons different teams have to vote it down basically. We were tasked with making the framework and then building off that. Not finishing all the details.

List submission format wasn't something that need addressed no matter how the rulespack is submitted. So why figure out a solution in there when it has zero impact on the rest of the rulespack? Just to have someone disapprove of our solution and vote it down? That is something that is easily sorted by a CC vote. In the end how you submit a list doesn't have tournament altering ramifications so long as the lists sumbitted are legal and clearly indicate what is in the list. A simple Xcel submission could easily do this!

What else of the many comments have been brought up on here that I have missed?

And, Jorge, drop the BS please! I wasn't passive aggressive in anyway and if you want to continue down the accusatory road do it with someone else!!!
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