v4 and ETC 2018

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v4 and ETC 2018

Postby graham » Tue Sep 05, 2017 5:09 pm

Hi,

Now that we have decided on v4 and EW, we have more work to do. There are a lot of questions to be addressed to make v4 work for ETC and also to make sure we have a watertight rules pack for EW. I support the ideas (expressed on another thread where I originally posted the following) of giving the job of drafting all this to a committee.

Why a committee? Any forum is great for raising questions. It is moderately good at discussing them - only "moderately" because people don't read all the posts, forget some of the arguments and drift off topic. It is pretty mediocre at agreeing a set of proposals for the above reasons plus it is even harder to discuss the overall balance of a set of proposals.

The size of the committee should be limited because a large group becomes a talking shop and the Forum already fulfils that function. I would suggest no more than six members, all from different teams.

I suggest that we give the following mandate to the committee:

The committee should be composed of captains from up to six teams. The members will be selected from volunteer captains. If there are more than six volunteers, a vote should be organised, with each team given six votes. The six volunteers with the most votes will be the members of the committee.

The committee will:
Draft a proposal on how to adapt ETC-specific aspects of the game to run under v4. (ETC-specific aspects include how many lists from a given nation, what about 2/2/2, how to do the pairings, who attacks, how to select the mission(s), what about battle plans...)
Draft a rules pack for EW v4. (To provide clarifications on aspects that are not ETC-specific and not yet addressed in LFTF. There are a number of issues that need looking at, which is hardly surprising given that the EW books are mostly v2 with some patches to carry them over to v3. This rules pack would be an annex to the current "don't be a dick" main rulespack.)
The committee will present its conclusions on ETC-specific aspects by mid-October. There will be a two-week comment period on the Forum. Then the committee will have a week to revise its proposal in the light of the comments. The revised proposal should then be presented for a yes-no vote. In case of a no vote, we revert to discussing on the Forum until a new vote can be prepared.

The same approach will apply to the EW-v4 rules pack.

Note that I am not proposing to give control to the committee - the captains would still decide through the normal voting process. The committee would just do the heavy lifting in preparation for the vote.

Full disclosure - I have been quietly working on the above aspects for about three weeks now together with a handful of other captains who volunteered to help. Our work is far from complete. I had no mandate to do this and I claim no right to be on the committee, though I am a volunteer. No hard feelings if I am not a member - this is a lot of work! I will of course be happy to share the incomplete work with the committee whether I am a member or not.
Last edited by graham on Wed Sep 06, 2017 5:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: v4 and ETC 2018

Postby Dave A » Tue Sep 05, 2017 8:40 pm

Have you contacted BF? If you have any issues I can forward them on to BF if you want. I've deluded myself that I have some good contacts there now :D

Given that BF are working some of these problems I think mid-October may be too early to commit to a rulespack - lets see your solutions and BF solutions and have a play with them for a month or so.
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Re: v4 and ETC 2018

Postby graham » Wed Sep 06, 2017 5:36 am

Dave - you are reacting to the second part of the work. No I have not spoken to BF about it. They are fully occupied in dealing with the generic issues with v4 at the moment. I think it is worth dealing with EW-specific issues in a rulespack and having it ready in good time for the ETC. If BF come up with new elements that supersede parts of it before the next ETC, great. The members of the committee would have wasted some time, that is all.

Regarding the first part of the work, that is not something that concerns BF at all.
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Re: v4 and ETC 2018

Postby graham » Wed Sep 06, 2017 5:40 am

I will take the liberty of copying Marko's reply from the thread where I first posted this:

TheMarko wrote:Great stuff Graham, Good to see initiative. One thing I would change is to odd number of captains (5 or 7, better 5), and possibly drop the captain clause, there are many smart and thoughtful people in the hobby who could bring high quality to the table, but are not captains (and not enough captains might volunteer in the first place).
The fact is that some things will have to be settled by vote, and even number of members means possible ties. Also one person should be appointed as commissar of the committee. Not to shoot people at will, but to possibly have final word in tied situations and to be held responsible for the work and schedule of committee . . . It will not be a glorious position to be in, but I think a necessary one.
To be clear, I am not volunteering, for any committee . . . But I support this initiative wholeheartedly . . .


Hope you don't mind, Marko!

I agree with his ideas about numbers and captains. Probably best to leave it to the committee whether they appoint a commissar or not.
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Re: v4 and ETC 2018

Postby TheMarko » Wed Sep 06, 2017 6:35 am

No problem Graham, I wrote that thing for everyone to see . . . The commissar thing should be decided by community, not by committee itself, because the community decides what they want from the committee, not the other way around. It was a proposition anyway, and it is open for discussion. It is my opinion that things work much better when there is someone who takes charge, but "oligarchy" may work as well . . .
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Re: v4 and ETC 2018

Postby Mongol » Wed Sep 06, 2017 6:49 am

Dave A wrote:Given that BF are working some of these problems I think mid-October may be too early to commit to a rulespack - lets see your solutions and BF solutions and have a play with them for a month or so.

First of all mid-October sounds too long to wait.
And benefits from waiting can be overpriced.
I don't know about you, but as for me September rules update is more or less disappointing
Hope they would fix it as they promise.
So don't see any problem to start working on ETC rules pack right now, if BF would create smth worthwhile, it can be implemented later
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Re: v4 and ETC 2018

Postby Jonny65 » Thu Sep 07, 2017 12:16 am

It sounds like you have the support of at least 5 captains, so you should start a vote on whether or not the FOWCC agree to this idea asap. The vote on who would be on such a committee could be run simultaneously. It could be redundant if the reduced committee idea is voted down, but better wasting a bit of effort now, than having to wait another 2 weeks to vote on committee members.
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Re: v4 and ETC 2018

Postby TheMarko » Thu Sep 07, 2017 6:21 am

Jonny65 wrote:It sounds like you have the support of at least 5 captains, so you should start a vote on whether or not the FOWCC agree to this idea asap. The vote on who would be on such a committee could be run simultaneously. It could be redundant if the reduced committee idea is voted down, but better wasting a bit of effort now, than having to wait another 2 weeks to vote on committee members.


I don't know if it is wise to start the vote for committee since there are no guidelines on what is this committee expected to do and in which time frame. If we assign some time for discussion, people might know at least a bit better what is expected of the committee . . . We should write a document stating all this, sort of a "subcharter" in order to start the vote. I know it means more voting and prolongation, but this is "democracy" and everyone should have a say in this. These votes could be held simultaneously (committee and rules for it).

Another option would be to create ad hoc committee and then make the rules on the run, but we may be risking not getting the job done.
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Re: v4 and ETC 2018

Postby graham » Thu Sep 07, 2017 8:21 am

Marko - the text in italics in my first post on this thread is meant to be a first draft of the document that you propose. I think it contains the guidelines and timeline that you want.

I'll be happy to re-draft it in line with your comments to allow an odd number of members and allowing non-captains to be members. As for a "commissar", I feel it is for the committee to decide how it should operate internally and we should only specify what it should deliver. But it's not a big deal for me so if others like the idea I'll be quite happy to re-draft to include a vozhd. :)

Is there anything else missing from the draft?

Anyway, although I have the same feeling as Jonny - i.e. let's get on with it! - my head tells me that you are right that it is probably worth waiting for some more reactions.
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Re: v4 and ETC 2018

Postby TheMarko » Thu Sep 07, 2017 8:46 am

I totally forgot about that. It did seem as proposition at the moment of reading . . . Sorry.
Thank you for taking me so seriously since I am neither captain nor chairman, and should not influence anything here by any means. I haven't even had decency to play a single game on any ETC so far. Anyway, the proposition is fine as is, but in my opinion rather vague.

I think that "(ETC-specific aspects include how many lists from a given nation, what about 2/2/2, how to do the pairings, who attacks, how to select the mission(s), what about battle plans...)" should be replaced with a solid list of what exactly should be done with last clause being something like "and other relevant items". Same goes for the rulespack.

I have already explained my personal opinion and ideas on number of committee members and leadership of it, and thank You for taking that into consideration.

Those are my two cents, it would be nice to hear an opinion from a captain or three, but as far as I'm concerned, this draft can be put on vote immediately . . .
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Re: v4 and ETC 2018

Postby tarnowski1 » Thu Sep 07, 2017 9:57 pm

yes lets vote on it and get this party started.

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Re: v4 and ETC 2018

Postby graham » Fri Sep 08, 2017 5:38 am

As we seem to be getting close to a vote, I'll re-post my suggestion to include a couple of Marko's suggestions. I also added a limit of no more than one member per team, which I clean forgot last time. I've marked the changes in bold font. Here is what I think we should vote for or against:

The committee should be composed of members from up to seven teams and with no more than one member from any one team. The members will be selected from volunteers. If there are more than seven volunteers, a vote should be organised, with each team given seven votes. The seven volunteers with the most votes will be the members of the committee, subject to the one member per team limit.

The committee will:
    Draft a proposal on how to adapt ETC-specific aspects of the game to run under v4. (ETC-specific aspects include how many lists from a given nation, what about 2/2/2, how to do the pairings, who attacks, how to select the mission(s), what about battle plans...)
    Draft a rules pack for EW v4. (To provide clarifications on aspects that are not ETC-specific and not yet addressed in LFTF. There are a number of issues that need looking at, which is hardly surprising given that the EW books are mostly v2 with some patches to carry them over to v3. This rules pack would be an annex to the current "don't be a dick" main rulespack.)
The committee will present its conclusions on ETC-specific aspects by mid-October. There will be a two-week comment period on the Forum. Then the committee will have a week to revise its proposal in the light of the comments. The revised proposal should then be presented for a yes-no vote. In case of a no vote, we revert to discussing on the Forum until a new vote can be prepared.

The same approach will apply to the EW-v4 rules pack.


If the vote is in favour, we'll then need to select the members and we ought to do it quickly. I volunteer to be a member. I will kick the other guys who have been working on this to see if they want to volunteer also.
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Re: v4 and ETC 2018

Postby Lynx » Fri Sep 08, 2017 5:58 am

Hi,

Thanks Graham for putting this correcly up again. Nice wirked couldn't have done it better.

As Graham said I volonteered too, and have already been working on some parts with Graham. I am happy to volonteer again.

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Re: v4 and ETC 2018

Postby Arkon » Fri Sep 08, 2017 6:29 am

Would still be in as well
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Re: v4 and ETC 2018

Postby Rugi » Fri Sep 08, 2017 7:47 am

I'm in as well
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Re: v4 and ETC 2018

Postby Reksio » Fri Sep 08, 2017 8:25 am

I will participate. Again :)
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Re: v4 and ETC 2018

Postby graham » Mon Sep 11, 2017 8:04 am

I am bringing this across from another thread.

TheTonyDavis wrote:
graham wrote:Tony - If you vote on the membership at the same time, then you are limiting the candidates to those who have already flagged interest. If that is not a problem, I'm happy with it because it will be the same informal group that is already working (people from Canada, England, France, Greece, Poland and Slovenia).


I find this interesting given that two expressed interest from team USA and weren't included in this informal group.


Tony - That is exactly why I flagged it to you. If we do set up a committee, one of your guys should have the chance to be a member. The same applies to all the other teams.

The informal group started working with a small number and then there was a rush of interest and your guys were part of that. It looked like the group was heading towards over a dozen and that was just too big to work in my view. I therefore didn't take on the extra people, including your guys. As it was an informal group with no mandate - we are just talking amongst ourselves - I could do that. It was nothing against your guys or anybody else, purely an issue of practicality.

Now we are talking about setting a committee with a proper mandate from the captains - though still no decision making-power. We therefore need to have a solid process for choosing the people to be on that committee. We need to give time for people to volunteer - including your guys if they still want to. This is why I think it better to have the vote on setting up the committee first. Then we can vote on the members.

I am a volunteer to be on the committee and I think the guys in the informal group have also all volunteered. But the actual members should be chosen by a vote. None of us, including me, have a right to be there. If I'm not on it, I look forward to having a lot more free time. :)

Incidentally, this exchange is a nice example of why I proposed the committee. We started this discussion on the points thread, where there is little or no information about the proposed committee. I brought my reply here to try to avoid confusion but generally trying to sort out anything substantial on the Forum itself is a recipe for confusion.
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Re: v4 and ETC 2018

Postby Jonny65 » Mon Sep 11, 2017 12:04 pm

I'd rather we kept to the current system, with the full FOWCC deciding everything.

If however the CC votes in favour of a smaller committee, I think that the committee's workings should be kept in the open. One of the other systems has/had a rules committee subforum, where only the committee could post, but anyone could view. This has the advantages of keeping the non-committee members up to date with what is going on, while allowing the committee to work without outside interruption. We could have a thread on the main forum where non-coms could make suggestions (and the inevitable complaints) and the committee could view this feedback and, if they felt necessary, respond. My fear is that a 'secret' committee could come up with their vision, have it rejected by the CC, then revised and rejected a few times before finally being begrudgingly accepted only because of time constraints, as was previously the case with the 'secret' WFB army restrictions committee.
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Re: v4 and ETC 2018

Postby graham » Mon Sep 11, 2017 2:12 pm

Jonny -

My proposal does have "the full FOWCC deciding everything". The committee prepares only a proposal.

I take your point about the risk of repeated rejections of the work of the committee. This is why my proposal allows the committee only one attempt. They make their proposal, get comments on it from everyone and then present a (probably revised) proposal for a vote. If the vote is against, it comes back to the full FOWCC for discussion, exactly as you suggest.
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Re: v4 and ETC 2018

Postby wyrm » Mon Sep 11, 2017 2:34 pm

graham wrote:Jonny -

My proposal does have "the full FOWCC deciding everything". The committee prepares only a proposal.

I take your point about the risk of repeated rejections of the work of the committee. This is why my proposal allows the committee only one attempt. They make their proposal, get comments on it from everyone and then present a (probably revised) proposal for a vote. If the vote is against, it comes back to the full FOWCC for discussion, exactly as you suggest.


And exactly this procedure was described by Johnny, where WFB made a bad precedent. After the revised version there was no time to make a normal one, and the one proposal nobody was really happy about (the secret one) had to be accepted.
I am not saying we will do the same mistake, just that it may happen.
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Re: v4 and ETC 2018

Postby graham » Mon Sep 11, 2017 4:05 pm

Ah, I see. Jonny appeared to describe multiple returns to the committee. I don't know the history.

Anyway, I am suggesting we give the committee only until mid-October to come up with a proposal. I doubt that a collective discussion on the Forum could be faster in coming up with a proposal that addresses all of the elements so we lose nothing by giving the preparatory work to the committee.
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Re: v4 and ETC 2018

Postby pizzaguardian » Mon Sep 11, 2017 4:58 pm

Well, from all this messaging i will be honest. I have no clue what is going on.

Anyway, how about this for the upcoming vote. I might have missed some dialogue so do correct me if sth is settled and i missed it.


Q1. Points: What points you prefer? (preference scale answer)
a-1500
b-1550
c-1600
d-1650

Q2. Tournament pack preparation: Do you want to keep the pack preparation as is (by the whole CC), or do you want to leave the job to a comitte? (note: at the end of the preparation period no matter the outcome there will be a vote for important decisions)
a-As is
b-Comittee

Q3- some matter of deciding how the commitee is formed, there are already more than enough people signed up for it. Any way that has captains/people from min 3 continents is fine by me. Waiting your opinions for this question.
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Re: v4 and ETC 2018

Postby graham » Tue Sep 12, 2017 4:45 am

Tony - have PM'd you.
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Re: v4 and ETC 2018

Postby TheTonyDavis » Tue Sep 12, 2017 8:30 pm

If there is a vote to have a separate council working on v4 issues then there should be some proper form of deciding who is on that council instead of it being a first come first serve. Some of us aren't in the same time zone!
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Re: v4 and ETC 2018

Postby Lynx » Thu Sep 14, 2017 12:43 pm

@Tony

That is what Graham suggests.
There has been a mistake/mislook when the volunteers formed the "unofficial" commite.
There was no intention to leave anyone out be assured.
For the number of participant. We already noticed that at 7 people in the unofficial commite finding agreements is not an easy task so there shouldn't be more than that.

Hope that the current proposal will suite everyone.

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Re: v4 and ETC 2018

Postby pizzaguardian » Fri Sep 15, 2017 12:32 pm

So, any ideas on Q3?

I would like to get the ball rolling with the vote.
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Re: v4 and ETC 2018

Postby M1le » Fri Sep 15, 2017 1:19 pm

IMO Q3 should be: How many people in the commitee? a.)5, b.)7 c.)9. If there are more people that are willing to be in the commitee than the voted cap, another vote for the members is initiated.
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Re: v4 and ETC 2018

Postby tarnowski1 » Fri Sep 15, 2017 2:31 pm

M1le wrote:IMO Q3 should be: How many people in the commitee? a.)5, b.)7 c.)9. If there are more people that are willing to be in the commitee than the voted cap, another vote for the members is initiated.


+1
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Re: v4 and ETC 2018

Postby Mongol » Wed Sep 20, 2017 7:49 am

So what's now gents?
Time is passing and still no vote, no discussion is taking place?
Are we moving anywhere?
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Re: v4 and ETC 2018

Postby M1le » Wed Sep 20, 2017 10:30 am

@pizzaguardian: Here you go. I think you can initiate a vote now with question 3 revised.

Q1. Points: What points you prefer? (preference scale answer)
a-1500
b-1550
c-1600
d-1650

Q2. Tournament pack preparation: Do you want to keep the pack preparation as is (by the whole CC), or do you want to leave the job to a comitte? (note: at the end of the preparation period no matter the outcome there will be a vote for important decisions)
a-As is
b-Comittee

Q3- How many people in the commitee?
a.)5,
b.)7
c.)9.

If there are more people that are willing to be in the commitee than the voted cap, another vote for the members is initiated.

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