Periode and version discussion for ETC 2018

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Re: Periode and version discussion for ETC 2018

Postby Arkon » Sun Aug 13, 2017 8:32 pm

There will be a vote on version (and maybe period if five Captains demand it), so Canada represented by their Captain has one vote as any other country
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Re: Periode and version discussion for ETC 2018

Postby Dave A » Sun Aug 13, 2017 9:53 pm

As I see it there are two areas of issues:

Issues with the rules - I've not seen much of that being suggested here - I understand there are potential issues, one of which is aircraft.

Issues with the More Missions. BF are working on that. HOWEVER there is nothing to say that More Missions will be the best way for ETC to operate. It could be extensively modified by the community to fit the ETC meta, without impacting anbody else, as it would be an ETC only modification. Additionally and I think significantly it would not be a modification to the core rules. More Missions appears to be "one way" but not necessiraly "the way" of organising matchups. ETC is outside the normal tournament meta so could easily have its own version of More Missions specific to the ETC. Based on BF More Missions, but not necessarily exactly the same as it isn't trying to fulfill the same purpose.
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Re: Periode and version discussion for ETC 2018

Postby stevec » Mon Aug 14, 2017 3:54 am

Dave

Whatever the ETC decide to do it must be as minimal as possible. Players want games in tournaments to use armies. This will not happen if changes are big. They must be minimal where possible so they will be adopted in their own country.

We need some clarifications and a few amendments but NOT wholesale invented rules just for the ETC, this does not work. Players already have pretty negative things to say about the ETC outside of the ETC, let's not make it worse let's make it positive.

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Re: Periode and version discussion for ETC 2018

Postby Dave A » Mon Aug 14, 2017 8:57 pm

stevec wrote:Dave

Whatever the ETC decide to do it must be as minimal as possible. Players want games in tournaments to use armies. This will not happen if changes are big. They must be minimal where possible so they will be adopted in their own country.

We need some clarifications and a few amendments but NOT wholesale invented rules just for the ETC, this does not work. Players already have pretty negative things to say about the ETC outside of the ETC, let's not make it worse let's make it positive.


Hi Steve,

That is what I was trying to say - hopefully all we need is an ETC way of picking the pairings and deciding missions and attacker/defender, not wholesale changes to the rules. More Missions is designed for general one one one tournaments and games. For the team competition if we tweek it to fit our needs I'd hope we get what we need.

Some are wondering hopw we do the Tank/mech/inf thing now. That as I see it was about deciding who attacked and who defended, although that got overriden too often by auto attack and auto defend. I was think in the drive home tonight that all we need is limit the arimes to two Hasty attack, two prepared attack, two defend and then build whatever list you want around those postures. So the Tank/mech/inf thing is replaced by posture, and an army has the same posture all weekend. It is the V4 equlivalent of Tank/mech/inf.
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Re: Periode and version discussion for ETC 2018

Postby Arkon » Mon Aug 14, 2017 9:16 pm

The Problem with dropping the AA is, that BF has killed most of the japanese lists if not all
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Re: Periode and version discussion for ETC 2018

Postby Mongol » Tue Aug 15, 2017 9:18 am

Arkon wrote:The Problem with dropping the AA is, that BF has killed most of the japanese lists if not all

True, without AA they are more or less dead.
Guess Japanese suffered the most from v4. No swap hits from defensive fire, all gun batteries are one base away from being in bad spirits, and most importantly AA, without it I have no idea how to play them
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Re: Periode and version discussion for ETC 2018

Postby BohicaCanada » Tue Aug 15, 2017 11:16 am

I am not convinced the Japanese lists as it stands are able to fight LW armies. They are not able to take on a fully mechanized, heavily armoured force as they are now. If you include tank types and guns that were being held back in the Home Islands for its defense then maybe they have a fighting chance.

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Re: Periode and version discussion for ETC 2018

Postby Arkon » Tue Aug 15, 2017 11:21 am

We are talking about EW
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Re: Periode and version discussion for ETC 2018

Postby BohicaCanada » Tue Aug 15, 2017 3:47 pm

They would still have a tough time. A Soviet tank spam would give them issues since they don't have access to large numbers of AT guns. Of course after the Battles of Khalkhin Gol, they developed a 47mm AT gun quick, but that does not figure in their early war lists.

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Re: Periode and version discussion for ETC 2018

Postby Arkon » Wed Aug 16, 2017 12:05 pm

Could someone please start this f...ing vote so we can move on???
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Re: Periode and version discussion for ETC 2018

Postby Angelfred » Wed Aug 16, 2017 12:46 pm

I strongly believe in the committee.
Best way to move forward.

Several points thou :
- the committee must be legitimate : it saves time for not having to vote on everything, yet it will decide for the others. I'm happy to let them decide, but we need to be sure the majority agrees as well. Can we have a simple vote on this ?
- as many said, ETC must not be an ovni in FoW landscape : I fairly believe the players coming to ETC are the best qualified persons to make the game evolve. Not just ETC. All FoW V4. As such, BF support is compulsory. Can we use the committee work as well as the work from the V4 task force to have BF make necessary changes to V4 ?
- I fairly believe in diversity : not wanting to offend anybody, but I think the committee, even if small (6 persons max) must include not only talented players, but also players from different
gaming groups : we don't play the same in Europe and in the US for instance. As such, and again, not wanting to offend anybody, i believe the committee shall have members :
- from the UK / largest FoW gaming community
- from Europe (non UK) / and here I strongly believe one member from the ever podiumed Poland is compulsory (...)
- from outside Europe / considering USA, Australia, NZ, South Africa, Russia.
Of course if they want to ...

Just saying ...
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Re: Periode and version discussion for ETC 2018

Postby Jonny65 » Wed Aug 16, 2017 2:11 pm

Arkon wrote:Could someone please start this f...ing vote so we can move on???

Good idea. If this is acceptable vote wording we can get Pizza Guardian to run it and move on.

Vote for Version and Period for FoW 2018

Question 1 - Which version should we play at ETC 2018?
a) Team Yankee
b) FoW V.3
c) FoW V.4

Question 2 - If FoW V.4 wins the vote, which period should we play?
a) EW
b) MW
c) LW

For each question, give your vote in order of preference, eg V4>TY>V3. If no option gets >50% of the vote, then the option with the lowest votes is eliminated and its votes transferred to the captain's next preference.
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Re: Periode and version discussion for ETC 2018

Postby Shawn Morris » Wed Aug 16, 2017 3:12 pm

Just wondering if we truly need a ERA vote (regardless of the winning option) as we already voted if would be EW for this year? I am good either way but the reality is less votes = quicker resolutions and close to finality.
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Re: Periode and version discussion for ETC 2018

Postby sovietpride » Wed Aug 16, 2017 4:52 pm

I prefer an ERA vote. Since we are already voting system, we lose no time or efforts by also voting for period.

I like the format propposed by Johnny 65.
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Re: Periode and version discussion for ETC 2018

Postby Shawn Morris » Wed Aug 16, 2017 5:20 pm

I guess my point was really asking the question, when did we devalue/dismiss the previously voted upon result? I am also good with a revote, but I believe there is a course of action required to go through before we get to that point, which in the interest of time creates a long/unnecessary process potentially.
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Re: Periode and version discussion for ETC 2018

Postby pizzaguardian » Wed Aug 16, 2017 9:03 pm

I see that i have been summoned. Are you guys sure about the 2 questions?

Also, TY and v3, such a surprise. Anyway i will start the vote in 2 days or so to let every captain give their insight. If it all goes to plan the vote will end on September 4th Monday.

As for the committe, it is simple.I would suggest either they put out 2-3 tournament packs or a comprehensive voting package with a dozen or more votes.

I suggest the former, having too many vote questiones just creates a random abomination of democracy.

@Arkon. You are rushing too much on every topic i see you, i suggest calming down. ETC is literally a year away or slightly less than a year. Still a long time.
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Re: Periode and version discussion for ETC 2018

Postby Arkon » Wed Aug 16, 2017 9:50 pm

Under the current circumstances with V4 I hate things not to be done when they could be done. Same is true for the vote on the date.

As well I dont see why we have to wait till November when new chairmen are willing to jump in?
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Re: Periode and version discussion for ETC 2018

Postby Dirkhrod » Thu Aug 17, 2017 5:20 am

Please let us get the first vote done with so we can get to the truly interesting issues. It really is just a formality as we already know the vast majority prefer EW V4, so let's just have the vote, confirm this (or not) and let us go to the administrative issues which are much more complex - points, composition etc.
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Re: Periode and version discussion for ETC 2018

Postby stevec » Thu Aug 17, 2017 6:43 am

The mission change on the bf website is a good start may I first say these may still need some attention but a good start.

In the night I have been contacted by bf. Pete simonvich wants to talk with me regarding v4. He is the money behind bf and main owner.

I am going to prepare for this call. I am going to get a list of things which urgently need attention in v4.

I hope this maybe the start of a reorganising of some of the rules.

If you have any suggestions please email a doc to me so I can print it out and compile it.

Kind regards

Steve

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Re: Periode and version discussion for ETC 2018

Postby Doktor Helge » Thu Aug 17, 2017 7:27 am

If there are not too Many members Of the group already , I would like to join the comitee too

The more missions pack is out, and a Huge step in the Right direction imo. And it shows that battlefront does listen to the community. I belive there is a good possibility that if we as a comunity find really broken rules or likewise, AND we come up with a good solution, then BF Will listen

I do firmly belive that we should stick as much as possible to the V.4 rules, but if we do find areas that are truely broken, we Will Of course have to do something to make it fair and playable


(Btw my experience Of V4 is a strong favor Of infantry, so I dont Think the japanese EW armies are bad.. not at all !!)
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Re: Periode and version discussion for ETC 2018

Postby Lynx » Thu Aug 17, 2017 7:41 am

Hi Steve,

I would suggest you to throw in your onput to graham or me and the actual comitee takes a quik look at what will be on topic an add some points that seem important.
As Fred suggested could you also add the brainstorming from the Facebook working group (and give me access by the way :D ).

This would be a good start I guess.

For the comitee : there are for now 5 members in it :
UK : Graham
POLAND : Reksio
CANADA : Shawn Morris
GREECE : Thomas
FRANCE : Me (Lynx)

As Graham said I would also prefer to have this comitee as small as possible to avoid loss of time. No offence to anybody as for now this comitee is only doing prework for the captains to handle the V3/V4 transition.
Once things will be settled we can discuss if we want to have a comitee elected each year and how it will work / what his power will be.

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Re: Periode and version discussion for ETC 2018

Postby Tito » Thu Aug 17, 2017 10:53 am

Jonny65 wrote:Good idea. If this is acceptable vote wording we can get Pizza Guardian to run it and move on.

Vote for Version and Period for FoW 2018

Question 1 - Which version should we play at ETC 2018?
a) Team Yankee
b) FoW V.3
c) FoW V.4

Question 2 - If FoW V.4 wins the vote, which period should we play?
a) EW
b) MW
c) LW

For each question, give your vote in order of preference, eg V4>TY>V3. If no option gets >50% of the vote, then the option with the lowest votes is eliminated and its votes transferred to the captain's next preference.

For me the right questions should be:

1) would do you like to hold the early-mid-late cyrcle? This means EW for ETC 2018
- Yes
- No

2) if most people want to change Period, what Period do you prefer?
- Early War
- Mid War
- Late War

3) what version do you prefer?
-V3
-V4


Understand if ae want to hold the EW-MW-LW cyrcle would be important.
I also suggest to ask for how many points we prefer for EW (since probably it will win). Please don't wait until 15th september to have the point value.
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Re: Periode and version discussion for ETC 2018

Postby Steven » Thu Aug 17, 2017 11:54 am

Steve,

You might not get an answer from BF regarding this but it could be very useful to know what will be released for MW by ETC2018.
My reasoning is that V4 should be best played in MW because of the complete design and the "balanced" points compared to the EW/LW V4 fix.
It probably is also what BF is looking for regarding feedback because their focus now lays there (and TY).
I know this breaks the cycle and ETCfixing V4 to V3.5 might not be what BF sees as working together?

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Re: Periode and version discussion for ETC 2018

Postby Angelfred » Thu Aug 17, 2017 3:25 pm

@Steven : I believe it’s very slippery slope to go to V3.5 instead of V4.
V4 may not be perfect (far from it indeed), but it’s the new rule we (ETC players) need to embrace if we do not want to appear as old dinosaurs, and moreover, loners in our own Communities.

We can all agree V4 has been badly wrote or badly thought on some (many ?) aspects.
Rereading again the rule book, there are so many loopholes and contradictory situation it’s appealing any decent company, using persons re-reading their work, would have released such a crap material.

However, V4 redefine our way to play, introducing things such as Movement Orders, new Morale and Reserves, as well as new way to win/lose.
Like it or not, I fairly believe we need to work with that.

The thing is, and I stress my words, the current pattern of BF “rules approach” is very, very bad : there are literally changing the rules whenever they want, and they is currently NO WAY to properly planned for an event as ETC.
I’m not talking only on a competitive aspect, but also on a “model” perspective : at the moment, you can buy stuff (well, if you find it…), stuff which, by “the holy spirit of Phil/Wayne thoughts”, can be useless in a second.
This can not be and this is going to be a game killer, not only for ETC, but also for the whole Flames of War Community.

Thanks to the dedicated work of players in the Community, and also thanks to the help of certain BF staff (mainly the financial and commercial ones, the individuals who understand the need to have things fixed, settled, structured, understandable, playable, enjoyable and solid, for the game to actually SELL itself), we have opened a door that may help us work WITH BF in making V4 a better game.

Let’s keep on working on this, and see if we can put BF in a situation where they can decently correct their V4 in a reasonable delay for ETC to use it properly.


Concerning the committee, sorry to play the advocate for countries that have not manifested themselves yet, but I believe someone from either USA or Australia shall also be here (well, if they don’t want to, then so be it !) : the guys are very good players, they have proved it in every ETC they have attended, and they are also players from overseas, with a different perspective on the game. Valuable intel to be used in the committee.
I deeply think Shawn’s addition is valuable : everybody knows Shawn is a cool guy and a good player for sure, but he also has the experience from North America tournaments scene. Great.

Also, concerning the committee, shall we include the “legitimacy” of the committee in the vote which is about to be settled ?
My main question is : do we agree to let a reduced group of players (5/6) decide the rules pack for ETC 2018 (points, missions, armies selections, pairs ups, etc.), or do we prefer not to ?
I mean, it’s ETC vote : any 5 unhappy Captains can reverse any decisions by requesting a vote : if we have a committee, we let dedicated players do the hard work of designing a suitable rules pack for all, and saving a great lot of time in not voting on everything.
And it’s done.
Worth it if players give legitimacy to this committee.
If not, no need to build one and have these players waste their time.

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Re: Periode and version discussion for ETC 2018

Postby olympia » Thu Aug 17, 2017 7:56 pm

It's not a good idea for a self-selected few individuals, most of whom are explicitly hostile to V4, to determine the nature of the ETC. We are the only system that seems to need 10+ months lead time on a rulespack. Did you know that the 40k this year went with an edition of the rules published in May? I realize that the average age of the FoW community is significantly older than the other systems but we should try to take some inspiration from our younger colleagues in 40k and embrace change.

EW or LW is a mistake, a debacle, in V4. MW is the only V4 period and we should go with it. But there's only Germans, UK, U.S., and Italians? Guess what, every team this year seemed to have the same lists--Forward Detachement, Tankovy, Brit/US infantry. Let's not fools ourselves on the diversity of lists represented at the ETC. If the community does vote on EW then we will have to comp the poop out of lists: single formation, etc. Given the tendency of teams to 'forget' or 'misremember' key rules (was it two top teams that mis-played the TDs this year?), I can only shudder when I think of all the exploits people will dream up with EW V4. This needs to be voted on by everyone as we go along, not be presented as a fait accompli rules pack.
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Re: Periode and version discussion for ETC 2018

Postby Trick08 » Thu Aug 17, 2017 10:19 pm

Happy to be part of whatever if determined.

That said...maybe we just need to have the committee comprised of all the Captains, yes it will be a little cumbersome and will maybe slow things down...no one, however, will be able to call into question its transparency or legitimacy and in the end it may save us time and angst.

Trick
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Re: Periode and version discussion for ETC 2018

Postby tarnowski1 » Thu Aug 17, 2017 10:22 pm

Trick08 wrote:Happy to be part of whatever if determined.

That said...maybe we just need to have the committee comprised of all the Captains, yes it will be a little cumbersome and will maybe slow things down...no one, however, will be able to call into question its transparency or legitimacy and in the end it may save us time and angst.

Trick
Australian Captain


+1 yep (wordy I know..)

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Re: Periode and version discussion for ETC 2018

Postby stevec » Fri Aug 18, 2017 5:10 am

Great nothing to be done then.

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Re: Periode and version discussion for ETC 2018

Postby stevec » Fri Aug 18, 2017 5:11 am

Each point argued for 20 pages nothing agreed on.

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Re: Periode and version discussion for ETC 2018

Postby sovietpride » Fri Aug 18, 2017 7:19 am

And what do you expected Stevec?

The ETC is a lawless place... we have a rulespack that is sistematically ignored and no penalties applied.

This year we had to play against teams which have important mistakes in their lists and others that used inadecuate proxys to represent certain troops.

I also had notice of several defensive and mobile battles that ended in «draw» because they werent unable to play 8 turns... was there a penalty for slow play?

Those unscrupulous will always push the envolope abussing of the good faith of regular players and with complete concidence that they wont be penalised.
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