Periode and version discussion for ETC 2018

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Re: Periode and version discussion for ETC 2018

Postby pizzaguardian » Thu Aug 10, 2017 5:37 pm

I would give it a week more or so for discussion than i will start the vote for 2 weeks to run. You guys should know the results before August.
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Re: Periode and version discussion for ETC 2018

Postby Lynx » Thu Aug 10, 2017 7:43 pm

Ok that's fine for me as long as we have the first Stone set until end of August all fine for me
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Re: Periode and version discussion for ETC 2018

Postby Arkon » Thu Aug 10, 2017 8:58 pm

Why waiting, I cant see any discussion about V3 or V4?
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Re: Periode and version discussion for ETC 2018

Postby M1le » Thu Aug 10, 2017 9:11 pm

Yegr wrote:War Period change should only be voted if 5+ Captains request a change from the standard Early War for 2018.


+1. Agree with Yegr.

I think sticking to 2 tank/mech/inf is a reasonable choice although I do not see the reason to keep the old attack/defend mechanism from V3. I think the V4 mechanics makes it very much more interesting as players will have to have more all rounder lists. Maybe just make always defend/attack lists as they were intended (to defend or to attack).
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Re: Periode and version discussion for ETC 2018

Postby Dave A » Thu Aug 10, 2017 9:20 pm

So if five captians call for a vote on period, then andother 5 can call for another vote, then another ......

Is any vote in this forum worth anything?

The cycle that has been agreed is 2018 EW, 2019 MW, 2020 LW. There has been a vote on that. Is that not binding?
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Re: Periode and version discussion for ETC 2018

Postby Dave A » Thu Aug 10, 2017 9:23 pm

graham wrote:To react to Tito's post, most of which I agree with, there is one point that I'd like to clarify.

Tito said (emphasis added): "we must decide if we want to apply V4 in toto or not. I'm talking about the composition of the team. Are we going to keep the old tank/mec/inf logic? Who attacks? What about always attack and always defend?" and "if we apply v4 rulebook in toto we can use the more mission pdf to create a new pairing system as I suggest in another topic*,otherwise we can use the old one for another year".

I agree that it is worth deciding whether or not to tweak v4 for ETC pairings, attack/defend, tank/mech/inf and similar ETC-specific points. On the other hand, I think we should wait a little to decide whether or not to tweak other aspects of the v4 rules for ETC 2018. There is a lot more experience to be had from playing in the second half of this year and we know that BF are looking at some aspects of the rules.


Graham much better put that I tried to do it.

We know BF are working on More Missions also. Give them time to release that at least. Maybe March is too late as others have said, but as Graham said we need more experience before we "fix" things.
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Re: Periode and version discussion for ETC 2018

Postby Dave A » Thu Aug 10, 2017 9:25 pm

Ostroc wrote:
Dave A wrote:I

I would not like the ETC community to "fix" V4 before we get some more playing experience and see what Battlefront comes up with. Maybe March next year might be a good time to talk of fixing any remaining issues - gives the community a few months to preppare for the ETC with the final rulespack....we have a saying - if it ain't broke don't fix it .... and while there are probably things that need fixing, lets get a bit more experience with these rules so we can start to see how they work and what is in most need of fixing....


If we thought that BF would actually fix the problems that would be fine, however they think that procrastination is fine.

We also have a saying "if it ain't broken don't fix it" However V4 is so broken it's unplayable in a tournament setting.

Regards

Jez


Jez

V3 was broken in some areas. V4 is the fix. I like the fix. If you don't then that is your opinion and I'll respect that.

I'd be concerned if V4 is "fixed" to be V3......

I'm not saying nothing needs fixing. And neither is Battlefront. Battlefront are working on some of the problems. That was said at the Captians meeting. Give them a chance please.
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Re: Periode and version discussion for ETC 2018

Postby Adamastor » Fri Aug 11, 2017 1:07 am

From what I saw in the captains meeting, this is merely a formality, since the vote was so overwhelmingly for V4 EW.

That being said, let´s make it official, and go from there.
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Re: Periode and version discussion for ETC 2018

Postby Tito » Fri Aug 11, 2017 7:20 am

Arkon wrote:Why waiting, I cant see any discussion about V3 or V4?

+1
It seems a merely formality since can't see any v3 supporter for ETC 2018.
I suppose we can start the vote tomorrow without any trouble.
As I can read people just want to know what format there will be.

What about the points? 1650?
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Re: Periode and version discussion for ETC 2018

Postby redvark » Fri Aug 11, 2017 8:00 am

Personally I can't see how v4 can currently work for ETC - the preponderance of draws, and difficulty for the defender to win means tournament play with what is basically a badly play tested (and that's not a comment on the play testers but on BF's bizarre methodology) set of "beer and pretzels" rules. There are huge issues with unbalanced armies such as Japanese and the Soviet zombie horde with pizza box re-rolls (if we go for EW). That's a personal view

I'd suggest we wait if the rumours of BF actually trying to fix the rules are true and then make a decision on version. Again a personal view is that coming to Zagreb to have games decided by the who attacks die roll is not an attractive proposition.

As for period EW 1550points is the call for Team Scotland
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Re: Periode and version discussion for ETC 2018

Postby Yegr » Fri Aug 11, 2017 8:21 am

Dave A wrote:
Ostroc wrote:
Dave A wrote:I

I would not like the ETC community to "fix" V4 before we get some more playing experience and see what Battlefront comes up with. Maybe March next year might be a good time to talk of fixing any remaining issues - gives the community a few months to preppare for the ETC with the final rulespack....we have a saying - if it ain't broke don't fix it .... and while there are probably things that need fixing, lets get a bit more experience with these rules so we can start to see how they work and what is in most need of fixing....


If we thought that BF would actually fix the problems that would be fine, however they think that procrastination is fine.

We also have a saying "if it ain't broken don't fix it" However V4 is so broken it's unplayable in a tournament setting.

Regards

Jez


Jez

V3 was broken in some areas. V4 is the fix. I like the fix. If you don't then that is your opinion and I'll respect that.

I'd be concerned if V4 is "fixed" to be V3......

I'm not saying nothing needs fixing. And neither is Battlefront. Battlefront are working on some of the problems. That was said at the Captians meeting. Give them a chance please.


I'm fine with Starting to play as-is Early War.

But I advise the following:
Decide on a Road Map/Timetable NOW : for example
August-October 15th - EW V4 time for testing as -is; data collection
Oct15th-Nov 30th - EW V4 various modified versions testing
Nov 30th cut off date for V4 modifications on BF side to be considered and tge start of a Vote to go with either per current BF rules at that time (30th Nov) or modify the V4 EW - and decide on scope of rulespack finalization.
January 31st - rules pack finalization. Start of Affirmation vote. In case majority does not affirm, rules pack sections must be voted and or changed.
Feb 28th final fixed rules pack with sections as agreed or dismissed.
June 30th list submission deadline.
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Re: Periode and version discussion for ETC 2018

Postby Lynx » Fri Aug 11, 2017 10:48 am

Gentelmen, so basically we should :

Confirm the poll on Version and Period right now.

Give us, as suggested by Yger, until end of October to play test V4 early as is and send our pow to a former designated/voted captain comitee that will compile all data's to send to BF for improvement.
If by end of january there has been no feedback nor improvement from BF, the comitee will work on a rulepack to concurre V4 with the ETC requirements (I.e missions, Soviet horde, Arty blobs, formation/nation limitation and so on)

So I want to call for an immediate vote for the points 1 and 2 : Version + period.

Cheers
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Re: Periode and version discussion for ETC 2018

Postby tarnowski1 » Fri Aug 11, 2017 12:20 pm

Lynx wrote:Gentelmen, so basically we should :

Confirm the poll on Version and Period right now.

Give us, as suggested by Yger, until end of October to play test V4 early as is and send our pow to a former designated/voted captain comitee that will compile all data's to send to BF for improvement.
If by end of january there has been no feedback nor improvement from BF, the comitee will work on a rulepack to concurre V4 with the ETC requirements (I.e missions, Soviet horde, Arty blobs, formation/nation limitation and so on)

So I want to call for an immediate vote for the points 1 and 2 : Version + period.

Cheers


+1

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Re: Periode and version discussion for ETC 2018

Postby Jonny65 » Fri Aug 11, 2017 12:50 pm

I like the idea of each nation being limited to one appearance per team. There are 12 nations available for EW on Forces, and a few more that aren't on the list. That seems like plenty of options to me.

In 3rd Ed we limited armies to one company per player, for EW 1 formation per player seems sufficient. That cuts down on a lot of shenanigans right away.
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Re: Periode and version discussion for ETC 2018

Postby stevec » Fri Aug 11, 2017 2:40 pm

I agree with a road map of timetables and what to happen.

One of my biggest concerns is the fact teams find loop wholes then abuse them without telling the other teams. This happened last weekend even though previously it was said any strange queries please bring up. There MUST be open findings from teams and players of contradictions or else the game is in jeopardy of leaving a bad taste.

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Re: Periode and version discussion for ETC 2018

Postby Tito » Fri Aug 11, 2017 3:00 pm

I agree at all with the idea of the Gantt.

But imho two things are very important:

1) are we going to keep the old tank/mec/inf for the composition of the roster?
2) how determinate who attacks? Are we going to keep also the old rules (tank attacks mec and inf, mec attacks inf, always defend, always attack...) or are we going to use a new method based on more mission?

Both seems underestimated at this moment.
Can understand many of us need some weeks to play and test the EW V4 (I agree and also for me is important) but to test properly we need to know at least the answer at the second question.
How can you playtest an infantry if you don't know you have to attack or defend against a tank?
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Re: Periode and version discussion for ETC 2018

Postby Lynx » Fri Aug 11, 2017 4:00 pm

stevec wrote:I agree with a road map of timetables and what to happen.

One of my biggest concerns is the fact teams find loop wholes then abuse them without telling the other teams. This happened last weekend even though previously it was said any strange queries please bring up. There MUST be open findings from teams and players of contradictions or else the game is in jeopardy of leaving a bad taste.


To be fair and honest once again we are trying to do all at once leaving huge loopholes and we will fail again...
So to get things right :

1. sort out version and Period (this is pretty obvious by now)
2. Elect a captain comitee (5 captains) to compile and send needed requests to BF for adjustment if needed. And will handle all further questions.
3. Have a play test for everyone until end of October using the actual rules as they are (using also the actual ETC concepte). Once done send your opinion to the comitee.
4. Comitee discuss the concerns with BF until end of January. If the points can't be sorted there will be a rulepack written to match ETC requirements (to be completed until end of feburary).
5. Lists submission end of June. With an additional obligation for each team captain to rise publically any rulepoint for discussion that could by misunderstood until end of July. If the point is to be found out at the ETC an automatic sanction will be applied with no discussion possible (example : all the players games played before the point was found out are changed into a loss) what I mean is there need to be a strong penalty to prevent anybody to try to hide an unclear point that could be use to it's advantage. (It is quite brutal but that's how FIFA and any other sports organisation are handling these questions).

Cheers
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Re: Periode and version discussion for ETC 2018

Postby graham » Fri Aug 11, 2017 4:10 pm

I support the call for a vote on rules and period.

Lynx talks a lot of sense. If we do decide to set up a captains' committee to look at amendments, I volunteer to take part in it.
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Re: Periode and version discussion for ETC 2018

Postby stevec » Fri Aug 11, 2017 4:24 pm

I would happily be a conduit for any findings etc as I have contact with bf.

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Re: Periode and version discussion for ETC 2018

Postby Arkon » Fri Aug 11, 2017 4:26 pm

Hi Seb,

For me this Tank/Mech/Inf decision as well as the always attack/always defend question has nothing to do with the V4 rules itself we have to look at, its more or less something that would help us to make V4 work better in a tournament environment, at least as it is now. In addition I think for instance the Desert fort or the Japanese are built around their specific rules.

Or is there something don't see?

Nevertheless we should decide on version and period first, although to me period is already decided with the cycle we voted on.

Cheers

Thomas
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Re: Periode and version discussion for ETC 2018

Postby Lynx » Fri Aug 11, 2017 4:41 pm

Hi Thomas,

These are exactly some of the points that the comitee should rise at BF to allow us to have a correct tournament environment.
For period and version you are exactly stating my point : this should be sorted out first (and I agree we voted for a cycle let's keep it running)

Cheers
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Re: Periode and version discussion for ETC 2018

Postby Mongol » Fri Aug 11, 2017 5:50 pm

Arkon wrote:Hi Seb,

For me this Tank/Mech/Inf decision as well as the always attack/always defend question has nothing to do with the V4 rules itself we have to look at, its more or less something that would help us to make V4 work better in a tournament environment, at least as it is now. In addition I think for instance the Desert fort or the Japanese are built around their specific rules.

+1 for this

And anyway if there is no captain that is raising the question to change cycle of periods, why should we vote it for?
Maybe will just decide what rules to play and what point limit to use?
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Re: Periode and version discussion for ETC 2018

Postby Tito » Fri Aug 11, 2017 7:33 pm

Arkon wrote:Hi Seb,

For me this Tank/Mech/Inf decision as well as the always attack/always defend question has nothing to do with the V4 rules itself we have to look at, its more or less something that would help us to make V4 work better in a tournament environment, at least as it is now. In addition I think for instance the Desert fort or the Japanese are built around their specific rules.

Or is there something don't see?

Nevertheless we should decide on version and period first, although to me period is already decided with the cycle we voted on.

Cheers

Thomas

+1

It's exactly what I was talking about.
Can't believe that BF will fix the V4 reintroducing tank/mec/inf and always attack/always defend after having deleted them and created the more mission ruleset.
So, since any captain has asked for changing the period (will ask at the italian captain, I heard he prefers mid), a vote for the period is not necessary. We should just vote for the points and, I hope, for the tank/mec/inf & the way for determinate who attacks. Don't we?
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Re: Periode and version discussion for ETC 2018

Postby Arkon » Sat Aug 12, 2017 1:20 am

Lynx wrote:Hi Thomas,

These are exactly some of the points that the comitee should rise at BF to allow us to have a correct tournament environment.
For period and version you are exactly stating my point : this should be sorted out first (and I agree we voted for a cycle let's keep it running)

Cheers
Seb


Regarding the comitee I would offer my attendance
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Re: Periode and version discussion for ETC 2018

Postby Shawn Morris » Sat Aug 12, 2017 4:10 am

I would also cast my name in for the council if the collective would support it.
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Re: Periode and version discussion for ETC 2018

Postby sovietpride » Sat Aug 12, 2017 8:33 am

I think its better for clarity to vote both ruleset and period first... even if a period cicle was agreed sometime ago, the introduction of a new version creates a new situation. So IMHO its better to have a full and open vote on all the issues.
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Re: Periode and version discussion for ETC 2018

Postby Lynx » Sat Aug 12, 2017 10:14 am

Ok so I guess we are coming to an agreement here.

So I would suggest that a chairman launches a vote for the two following points (Version and Period) this should be settled within the next week to be honest but to be sure give us the two next week so we can carry on.

As a forecast for the comitee building concept :
For the comitee/council we have for now : Steeve, Graham, Thomas and Shawn who are attending.
I would suggest the following : any comitee member has to be a captain (If the captain want's to nominate a Team member instead of himself this can only be a spokesman) and from a different country. If there are only 5 attendant the comitee will be built like that other wise I think we will have to vote for the members.
The committee has to post it's actions and thoughts on the forum so that all teams are aware of what is going on.
The committee has to agree on all points by a majority vote (so 3 out of 5 members).

Hope this is ok so far for all of you and that it will bring the community forward.

Cheers.
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Re: Periode and version discussion for ETC 2018

Postby Arkon » Sat Aug 12, 2017 10:29 am

Hi Seb, if you go like that Steven could not be a member as Graham is captain of Team England. Any solution?

I assume you are in as well, right? :)
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Re: Periode and version discussion for ETC 2018

Postby Lynx » Sat Aug 12, 2017 11:04 am

Hi Thomas,

I thought Steven is a spokesman so he could... need to be confirmed as I suggested either the captain or the spokesman can attend. But still two people from team England would attend and I don't want to have disputes about this. Unless nobody else is attending so this would be fine
As regarding me yes, I would go in as well or at least the French spokesman.
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Re: Periode and version discussion for ETC 2018

Postby Arkon » Sat Aug 12, 2017 11:26 am

I have no problems with Steve in, I just want to avoid any disussions beforhand :)
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