Periode and version discussion for ETC 2018

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Lynx
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Periode and version discussion for ETC 2018

Postby Lynx » Wed Aug 09, 2017 7:45 am

Hi guys,

As suggested, I'm launching the discussion about next year's ETC for FOW.
So basically the question is what will we play next year?
After the captain's meeting on Saturday we had a poll with the following options :

- playing V3?
- playing V4?
A good majority of the captain's were heading for V4.

Next we had the question what period to play :

- early war?
- mid war?
- late war?
Here a majority of captain's looked for early war.

So to sum it up, I suggest we should discuss these questions again here and have a vote before end of August giving us enough time to get comfortable with v4 if selected and train correctly.
Hope this is OK for everybody.

I carry on with my point of view :
I'm convinced we should go for V4 to keep FOW running. BF made a decision and we should support it as good as we can. Matt from BF told us that we can improve the actual game with our feedback so deciding to go for V4 is for me the best argument to show BF that there is a willing from our side to carry on with the game and probably rise the chances they really listen to us.

Regarding the period : I think we should go for early war. Even if there are some balance issues for now we haven't enough stuff to allow us to keep the actual system by going for mid war. Late war is definitely out for me as it is totally unbalanced and not payable.
Furthermore going for early will give as a good vision on V4 and allow us to adapt if needed the ETC rules to version4.

So far for me, I'll write a PM to pizzaguardian asking him when the vote can be set the earliest.

Cheers guys
Seb
Last edited by Lynx on Wed Aug 09, 2017 9:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Periode and version discussion for ETC 2018

Postby Arkon » Wed Aug 09, 2017 8:21 am

I guess that Seb summed it up correctly, but I would say we have only to vote for V3 or V4 as Early War will be the period für 2018 anyway by the cycle we voted for already.

If five Captains want to have a vote on this again because they want to switch to another period they could step up here and ask for a vote.

What we for sure should decide on by end of August are the points we are going to play in 2018.

During Salamanca I have talked to some captains about the idea of just bringing one list per nation per team, this could prevent us from having three russian lists (tanks, mec and inf) per team and having the most boring tournament ever.

As well we could just stick to the tank/mec/cnf mechanic to determine who ist attacker and defender?

Cheers

Thomas
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Re: Periode and version discussion for ETC 2018

Postby Tito » Wed Aug 09, 2017 9:11 am

What we have to decide is

1) Rulebook (V4,V3)
2) Period (Earl War, Mid War, Late War)
3) Points (1550, 1600, 1650...)
4) FAQ (we must decide if we want to apply V4 in toto or not. I'm talking about the composition of the team. Are we going to keep the old tank/mec/inf logic? Who attacks? What about always attack and always defend?)
5) Pairing System (two possibilities: if we apply v4 rulebook in toto we can use the more mission pdf to create a new pairing system as I suggest in another topic*,otherwise we can use the old one for another year)


Ad Fred says it's important to take a decision (aka a vote) soon.



*
Tito wrote:My suggestion is that each team has six cards in every match: 2 hasty attacks, 2 prepared attack and 2 defence. After pairings captain assign these cards at his guys and chose who's making an hasty attack, a prepared attack and a defence. In this way the strategy is extended to the team and not to the single member. I belive that this solution can overrun the I/M/T logic.
Last edited by Tito on Wed Aug 09, 2017 9:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Periode and version discussion for ETC 2018

Postby M1le » Wed Aug 09, 2017 9:13 am

Arkon wrote:During Salamanca I have talked to some captains about the idea of just bringing one list per nation per team, this could prevent us from having three russian lists (tanks, mec and inf) per team and having the most boring tournament ever.


There was a vote on this topic already initiated by me, but the majority voted against it. The limitation was set to a maximum of 2 armies of the same nationality. I am not against having the vote again though, as it is sensible to have a limitation.

Team Slovenia fully supports V4 and EW. We have to move on and leave V3 in the grave.

Regards,

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Re: Periode and version discussion for ETC 2018

Postby TheMarko » Wed Aug 09, 2017 9:28 am

My 2 cents:

I'm fine with V4 switch. It is a natural order of development. We can expect support from battlefront as said. Even if that fails, we can write rules pack to fix what needs fixing, as fantasy and 40k guys do.

EW - my least favourite period due to fact there are no US forces, unless we include Gung Ho . . . :D That is if EW stays on the table, which it should.

The time is NOW to start petitioning next year's organiser for space between tables, amount and quality of terrains and whatever else we might need. As far as I know (I may be grossly misinformed, and I sincerely apologise if I'm wrong) Croatia does not have a big FoW community. I don't remember Croatia ever attending ETC with FoW team. Next Year's ETC will fall heavily on communities shoulders.

Best regards,
Marko
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Re: Periode and version discussion for ETC 2018

Postby Arkon » Wed Aug 09, 2017 9:35 am

M1le wrote:
Arkon wrote:During Salamanca I have talked to some captains about the idea of just bringing one list per nation per team, this could prevent us from having three russian lists (tanks, mec and inf) per team and having the most boring tournament ever.


There was a vote on this topic already initiated by me, but the majority voted against it. The limitation was set to a maximum of 2 armies of the same nationality. I am not against having the vote again though, as it is sensible to have a limitation.

Team Slovenia fully supports V4 and EW. We have to move on and leave V3 in the grave.

Regards,

Milan


I guess the circumstances are a bit different now, cause the limitation I am proposing could solve the formation "abuse" that could be expected if we stick to the army composition as it is now.
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Re: Periode and version discussion for ETC 2018

Postby Mongol » Wed Aug 09, 2017 9:50 am

Just for discussion I would suggest the following for the next year:
1. V4
2. EW
3. Keep current system of determining the attacker
4. Keep current team building (inf/mech/tank)

TheMarko wrote:My 2 cents:
EW - my least favourite period due to fact there are no US forces, unless we include Gung Ho . . . :D That is if EW stays on the table, which it should.

Well, I actually love this idea :D
But than we should include "Banzai" too that would be fair.
In this case it would be necessary to check all of the equipment from both books, as not everything was available in 39-41.
And it would require an errata on what you can use.
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Re: Periode and version discussion for ETC 2018

Postby Reksio » Wed Aug 09, 2017 9:53 am

I honestly love the idea of 2 of each battle plan assigned by the captain during the pairings.
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Re: Periode and version discussion for ETC 2018

Postby TheMarko » Wed Aug 09, 2017 10:09 am

Mongol wrote:In this case it would be necessary to check all of the equipment from both books, as not everything was available in 39-41.
And it would require an errata on what you can use.


If You mean the Shermans . . . Leave them be. At 500 points per piece, they are a bargain for Your opponent . . . :D
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Re: Periode and version discussion for ETC 2018

Postby sovietpride » Wed Aug 09, 2017 10:20 am

Its not only Shermans... its Bazookas and superior Japanese equipment. Why play EW with 1944 lists?

BTW EW has more or less the same balance issues as LW in V4 (with the exception of cannon armed aircraft), we have a promise that BF will hear our feedback but thats not a guarantee that the changes will fit the ETC format... so prepare for an extensive rulespack to mod V4.

First thing we should limit is multiple formations, that opens a hole can of worms (including creative alliances), so list should be limited to a single formation (IE the same options they currently have in forces).

If we use battleplans prepare for players repeating the same mission multiple times during the ETC, that can be frustrating and boring.
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Re: Periode and version discussion for ETC 2018

Postby Lynx » Wed Aug 09, 2017 10:38 am

All fair and good guys but I think you get lost in too much details... we need to do things one by one.

So we should focus on tow questions first, and exactly in this order :

1. Version 3 or Version 4
2. Period : Early, Mid or Late?

Once this is satteled we can discuss further things.
So please focus on the tow above points and leave all other concerned for later.
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Re: Periode and version discussion for ETC 2018

Postby Reksio » Wed Aug 09, 2017 10:42 am

Lynx has a point. We should go top to bottom. I am nearly sure Poland would support EW v4 modified to fit ETC.
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Re: Periode and version discussion for ETC 2018

Postby Dirkhrod » Wed Aug 09, 2017 11:24 am

Romania supports V4 Early War, it seems the only logical way to go. It will be a "sacrificial" year due to having to use the transitional rules, but then we should have a fully functional Mid War in 2019 and the cycle can be maintained.

Regarding the 1 nation / team, we are fully for it, as we think it would make for a much more entertaining tournament. There are enough nations with capable lists in EW to support this idea.

Cheers,
Dan
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Re: Periode and version discussion for ETC 2018

Postby Yegr » Wed Aug 09, 2017 1:34 pm

I'm for
1. V4
2. Sticking with EW per timeline rotation
3. Points in 1500-1700 range
4. Use of current V3 ew books and their lists with a single "tree" per player.
5. Creating a ETC FoW tournament pack that will normalize play and which may include the following:
A. Scenarios
B. Book modifications
6. Nation Cap at 2 per team - max 2 lists from 1 Nation.
7. creating a road map / schedule for rulespack elements completion - freeze.
8. Fixed scenarios for all players. Current battleplan rules can result in multiple repetition of scenarios and may hurt the lists diversity.

Regards


Captains who mentioned it duribg the meeting pls share the the FB page / group with rules discussion.
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Re: Periode and version discussion for ETC 2018

Postby Dave A » Wed Aug 09, 2017 6:46 pm

I'm not the captain but Team NZ has discussed and supports V4 EW.

As for the rest these are personal views. As I said at the Captain's meeting Battlefront are looking at more missions. That has been stated publically by Peter from Battlefront.

I would not like the ETC community to "fix" V4 before we get some more playing experience and see what Battlefront comes up with. Maybe March next year might be a good time to talk of fixing any remaining issues - gives the community a few months to preppare for the ETC with the final rulespack....we have a saying - if it ain't broke don't fix it .... and while there are probably things that need fixing, lets get a bit more experience with these rules so we can start to see how they work and what is in most need of fixing....
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Re: Periode and version discussion for ETC 2018

Postby the count » Wed Aug 09, 2017 7:05 pm

Will consult with my brethren about other issues but it has to be V4 for sure IMHO
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Re: Periode and version discussion for ETC 2018

Postby 96mgb » Wed Aug 09, 2017 9:49 pm

My suggestion is we take a breath. Take 6vweeks or so for people to play V4 both EW/LW and MW. Then when people have played it discuss and vote. Jump in it too fast and we will regret it. There is no need to start building an army straight away.

Breath and slow down! Try it then form a valid opinion and present it. We are shifting from the hip here.
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Re: Periode and version discussion for ETC 2018

Postby Tito » Wed Aug 09, 2017 10:30 pm

Dave A wrote:I'm not the captain but Team NZ has discussed and supports V4 EW.

As for the rest these are personal views. As I said at the Captain's meeting Battlefront are looking at more missions. That has been stated publically by Peter from Battlefront.

I would not like the ETC community to "fix" V4 before we get some more playing experience and see what Battlefront comes up with. Maybe March next year might be a good time to talk of fixing any remaining issues - gives the community a few months to preppare for the ETC with the final rulespack....we have a saying - if it ain't broke don't fix it .... and while there are probably things that need fixing, lets get a bit more experience with these rules so we can start to see how they work and what is in most need of fixing....

No, Dave. March is too late too fix issues. Some things (tank/mec/inf, always attack/always defend...) are too much important for the selection of the armies.
We can wait few weeks, but a decision should be taken as soon as possible.
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Re: Periode and version discussion for ETC 2018

Postby Doktor Helge » Thu Aug 10, 2017 12:05 am

Denmark is definately for V.4 the last 4-5 months only 6 guys in Denmark played V.3 the rest Of the community went to V.4 when it was released.

EW is the Best choice presently, mid war Will not be completed by summer 2018, and Mixing new V.4 books with Eastern front wil be very unbalanced

1 formation/Company
V.4 allows several formations, and This is fine for a non competetive afternoon in the club.
But it is not practical in an tournament setting

A max Of 2 formations/companies pr nation seems a good idea

Sticking to attack/defend as presently (which Also is one Of the three options in the official V.4 book regarding who attacks or defends)

We NEED to develope a tournament rules set, and we need to Work on This promptly, we cannot wait till march and hope BF had fixed it all by then.. hopefully BF Will comment our rules pack for tournament as it debeloped and maybe use some og it in lessons from the front.

As soon at This discution has been settled we need to decide on points so that we Can start testing the game with the propper point values, find the weaknesses and make rules to prevent these
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Re: Periode and version discussion for ETC 2018

Postby Ostroc » Thu Aug 10, 2017 12:15 am

Dave A wrote:I

I would not like the ETC community to "fix" V4 before we get some more playing experience and see what Battlefront comes up with. Maybe March next year might be a good time to talk of fixing any remaining issues - gives the community a few months to preppare for the ETC with the final rulespack....we have a saying - if it ain't broke don't fix it .... and while there are probably things that need fixing, lets get a bit more experience with these rules so we can start to see how they work and what is in most need of fixing....


If we thought that BF would actually fix the problems that would be fine, however they think that procrastination is fine.

We also have a saying "if it ain't broken don't fix it" However V4 is so broken it's unplayable in a tournament setting.

Regards

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Re: Periode and version discussion for ETC 2018

Postby stevec » Thu Aug 10, 2017 5:37 am

Two armies of the same nation or three even more is wrong you will get two identical armies which could be rather strong. If this is the case 3 armies exactly the same boring boring boring. There are probably teams who have three lists which are complete spam lists which could ruin people games. Where as one nation one list gives more challenges. And no banzai please...come on we are doing 39/41 not fantasy Sherman's irrelevant of costs.

Also march is far to late.

I also don't think the problems can be sorted by a committee of 26+ teams. Too many people nothing gets done it must be by a small panel.

We also must decide a time limit to change things.

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Re: Periode and version discussion for ETC 2018

Postby Tito » Thu Aug 10, 2017 9:45 am

Just to summarize what we're talking about:

1) Rulebook
- V4
- V3

2) Period
- Early War
- Mid War
- Late War

3) Points
- 1550
- 1600
- 1650
- other

4) Composition of the roster
a) Selection of armies
- tank/mec/inf
- no limits
b) Limits for nation
- max 2 for nation
- max 1 for nation
- no limits
c) Multiple formation
- yes
- no

5) Pairing system
- old one
- new one based on more mission
- another one ???

6) Banzai & Gung Ho
- yes
- no


(we must decide if we want to apply V4 in toto or not. I'm talking about the composition of the team. Are we going to keep the old tank/mec/inf logic? Who attacks? What about always attack and always defend?)
5) Pairing System (two possibilities: if we apply v4 rulebook in toto we can use the more mission pdf to create a new pairing system as I suggest in another topic*,otherwise we can use the old one for another year)
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Re: Periode and version discussion for ETC 2018

Postby graham » Thu Aug 10, 2017 10:18 am

To react to Tito's post, most of which I agree with, there is one point that I'd like to clarify.

Tito said (emphasis added): "we must decide if we want to apply V4 in toto or not. I'm talking about the composition of the team. Are we going to keep the old tank/mec/inf logic? Who attacks? What about always attack and always defend?" and "if we apply v4 rulebook in toto we can use the more mission pdf to create a new pairing system as I suggest in another topic*,otherwise we can use the old one for another year".

I agree that it is worth deciding whether or not to tweak v4 for ETC pairings, attack/defend, tank/mech/inf and similar ETC-specific points. On the other hand, I think we should wait a little to decide whether or not to tweak other aspects of the v4 rules for ETC 2018. There is a lot more experience to be had from playing in the second half of this year and we know that BF are looking at some aspects of the rules.
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Re: Periode and version discussion for ETC 2018

Postby tarnowski1 » Thu Aug 10, 2017 11:12 am

personally I think we formally decide/Vote on

1 and 2 and 6 together
then 3
then 4 and 5 (but later on in the year after we have had time to test/play the decisions of the above)

Regards
Matt


Tito wrote:Just to summarize what we're talking about:

1) Rulebook
- V4
- V3

2) Period
- Early War
- Mid War
- Late War

3) Points
- 1550
- 1600
- 1650
- other

4) Composition of the roster
a) Selection of armies
- tank/mec/inf
- no limits
b) Limits for nation
- max 2 for nation
- max 1 for nation
- no limits
c) Multiple formation
- yes
- no

5) Pairing system
- old one
- new one based on more mission
- another one ???

6) Banzai & Gung Ho
- yes
- no


(we must decide if we want to apply V4 in toto or not. I'm talking about the composition of the team. Are we going to keep the old tank/mec/inf logic? Who attacks? What about always attack and always defend?)
5) Pairing System (two possibilities: if we apply v4 rulebook in toto we can use the more mission pdf to create a new pairing system as I suggest in another topic*,otherwise we can use the old one for another year)
Matt

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Re: Periode and version discussion for ETC 2018

Postby Doktor Helge » Thu Aug 10, 2017 11:26 am

No to Banzai and Gung ho from Team DK
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Re: Periode and version discussion for ETC 2018

Postby Lynx » Thu Aug 10, 2017 11:57 am

As already said :

Don't get lost in details. Let's do it one step after another.
So first let's take a decision on the captain's meeting poll :

1. V4 or V3
2. Early, Mid or Late.

Once these questions have been settled we can talk about all the other things.

I would join Steeve's opinion. Let's decide the two above questions by all captain's and than create a "captain council" who will go through all further option discussion.
Are there captain's who want to second that?

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Re: Periode and version discussion for ETC 2018

Postby tarnowski1 » Thu Aug 10, 2017 12:00 pm

I'll second that

Lynx wrote:As already said :

Don't get lost in details. Let's do it one step after another.
So first let's take a decision on the captain's meeting poll :

1. V4 or V3
2. Early, Mid or Late.

Once these questions have been settled we can talk about all the other things.

I would join Steeve's opinion. Let's decide the two above questions by all captain's and than create a "captain council" who will go through all further option discussion.
Are there captain's who want to second that?

Cheers
Matt

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Re: Periode and version discussion for ETC 2018

Postby Arkon » Thu Aug 10, 2017 1:04 pm

So, could a chairman please put up a vote on version and period asap so that we can move on?
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Re: Periode and version discussion for ETC 2018

Postby Tito » Thu Aug 10, 2017 4:35 pm

Arkon wrote:So, could a chairman please put up a vote on version and period asap so that we can move on?

Yea, would be great.
But just a first step. A decision about always attack/defence is another important point. By the way agree we can wait some weeks for it.
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Team Italy FOW 2016

Yegr
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Re: Periode and version discussion for ETC 2018

Postby Yegr » Thu Aug 10, 2017 5:01 pm

War Period change should only be voted if 5+ Captains request a change from the standard Early War for 2018.
ETC 2012-2013 FoW Canada Mercenary Player
ETC 2014-2015 FoW Poland Player
ETC 2016-2017 FoW Poland Captain


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