ETC FoW 2017 Lists

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TheMarko
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Re: ETC FoW 2017 Lists

Postby TheMarko » Fri Jul 07, 2017 10:32 am

Whatever is decided will be applied to everyone - who makes the final decision will be established soon.

The fact is that I like (seems like majority does as well) the proposed lists modification. All affected parties might want to start thinking about outsourcing few Shermans for the ETC. Since this is a tricky situation I would also consider allowing some degree of proxy-ing for these units. Not in terms of different models, only as different paint job or even wrong paint scheme, as long as it is VERY OBVIOUS which platoon the tanks belong to (for example US Shermans in Russian lists are very obvious to me if they are part of only one and the same platoon). This would be only to allow teams to make some ad-hoc Sherman platoons because although the lists are legal, they appear to be heavily in the grey zone and might need to be adjusted for the sake of sportsmanship this close to the tournament.
This, as before, is far from official ruling, only a suggestion.

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Marko
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Re: ETC FoW 2017 Lists

Postby Arkon » Fri Jul 07, 2017 10:42 am

TheMarko wrote:Whatever is decided will be applied to everyone - who makes the final decision will be established soon.

The fact is that I like (seems like majority does as well) the proposed lists modification. All affected parties might want to start thinking about outsourcing few Shermans for the ETC. Since this is a tricky situation I would also consider allowing some degree of proxy-ing for these units. Not in terms of different models, only as different paint job or even wrong paint scheme, as long as it is VERY OBVIOUS which platoon the tanks belong to (for example US Shermans in Russian lists are very obvious to me if they are part of only one and the same platoon). This would be only to allow teams to make some ad-hoc Sherman platoons because although the lists are legal, they appear to be heavily in the grey zone and might need to be adjusted for the sake of sportsmanship this close to the tournament.
This, as before, is far from official ruling, only a suggestion.

Cheers,
Marko


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Re: ETC FoW 2017 Lists

Postby Psychopath » Fri Jul 07, 2017 10:58 am

Any tanks in your Peredovye Otryad HQ , Combat and Weapons Companies must be equipped with the same type of tank . However Tankovy Companies may be equipped with a mix of T-34/76 and T-34/85" .

This rule is clear. And Phil says that Lees and Shermans are the same type of tank.
I really start to worry about Phils mental health...
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Re: ETC FoW 2017 Lists

Postby Roger » Fri Jul 07, 2017 10:59 am

TheMarko wrote:Guys,

Remember the first and foremost rule guys . . . HAVE FUN . . . I want to enjoy my stay in Salamanca, so behave please . . . :D



Perhaps we should have a 1 small point penalty in the rules pack next year for not having fun....

:twisted:
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Re: ETC FoW 2017 Lists

Postby TheMarko » Fri Jul 07, 2017 11:03 am

Roger wrote:
TheMarko wrote:Guys,

Remember the first and foremost rule guys . . . HAVE FUN . . . I want to enjoy my stay in Salamanca, so behave please . . . :D



Perhaps we should have a 1 small point penalty in the rules pack next year for not having fun....

:twisted:


If it were up to me, I'dd do it . . . There is only a small issue with the charter, CC and CCC . . . Apart from that, it's as good as done . . .

:twisted:
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Re: ETC FoW 2017 Lists

Postby Lynx » Fri Jul 07, 2017 11:10 am

Hi guys,

as far as I'm concerned for the French team on all the above mentionned :

Irish Barazilian list, Hell yeah guys, you had the guts and honesty to point out a mistake nobody has seen. so all the way big applause =D> from my side and support on your proposal which is fair enough.

for the PO lists, well it is very confusing and I must say as quite all of us non native speaker it seems pretty obvious. But as there is a disagreement beween native speaker themselves make this thing tricky.
Phil said what he had to say so basically no need for changes. Here again Tony thumb up for your proposal which is a real step toward the others and not simply campuing on your position because Phil said you can...

So for me this is all good but well if the ref's have to decide let them do their job.
I would just recommand for next time to post you thoughts as did France for the 2 Lists where we had doubts and asked for your approval :D

can't wait to face Fows "creme de la creme" in Salamanca

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Re: ETC FoW 2017 Lists

Postby Trick08 » Fri Jul 07, 2017 11:18 am

TheMarko wrote:Whatever is decided will be applied to everyone - who makes the final decision will be established soon.

The fact is that I like (seems like majority does as well) the proposed lists modification. All affected parties might want to start thinking about outsourcing few Shermans for the ETC. Since this is a tricky situation I would also consider allowing some degree of proxy-ing for these units. Not in terms of different models, only as different paint job or even wrong paint scheme, as long as it is VERY OBVIOUS which platoon the tanks belong to (for example US Shermans in Russian lists are very obvious to me if they are part of only one and the same platoon). This would be only to allow teams to make some ad-hoc Sherman platoons because although the lists are legal, they appear to be heavily in the grey zone and might need to be adjusted for the sake of sportsmanship this close to the tournament.
This, as before, is far from official ruling, only a suggestion.

Cheers,
Marko

+1 Team Australia can lend anyone who needs tank tanks...we have an epic amount...just let us know what we need to bring.

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Re: ETC FoW 2017 Lists

Postby sovietpride » Fri Jul 07, 2017 11:21 am

Mongol wrote:
sovietpride wrote:I would really like a link to the modified lists.
Thanks in advance.


Sure, no problem:
https://vk.com/doc864910_447598963?hash=89ae8d9eb465060f98&dl=84291fb1ce6d2edd83

Anyway if its possible we would prefer to keep original one, but if we have to change it, this variant would do.


So If I have got things right the status of the list are:

USA Team: Exchange the 10 Lees for 7 Shermans.

Russia Team: Exchange the 10 T34´s for 10 Matildas and add a SU-85M.

Irish Team: No current propossal on the Peredoye List. Brazilian list will change to include a Cavalry Recon Patrol and three short rifle platoons.

I´m right?
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Re: ETC FoW 2017 Lists

Postby Trick08 » Fri Jul 07, 2017 11:23 am

sovietpride wrote:
Mongol wrote:
sovietpride wrote:I would really like a link to the modified lists.
Thanks in advance.


Sure, no problem:
https://vk.com/doc864910_447598963?hash=89ae8d9eb465060f98&dl=84291fb1ce6d2edd83

Anyway if its possible we would prefer to keep original one, but if we have to change it, this variant would do.


So If I have got things right the status of the list are:

USA Team: Exchange the 10 Lees for 7 Shermans.

Russia Team: Exchange the 10 T34´s for 10 Matildas and add a SU-85M.

Irish Team: No current propossal on the Peredoye List. Brazilian list will change to include a Cavalry Recon Patrol and three short rifle platoons.

I´m right?

I think you are
Trick

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Re: ETC FoW 2017 Lists

Postby Trick08 » Fri Jul 07, 2017 11:25 am

Soooooo as this particular set of issues is "starting" to resolve...how about I throw up another one we may have just found <sprints for nuclear fall out shelter>

Trick

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Re: ETC FoW 2017 Lists

Postby TheMarko » Fri Jul 07, 2017 11:28 am

Shoot while there is still time . . . Your shooting phase is almost over . . .
There is no problem, a large artillery template can't solve.

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Re: ETC FoW 2017 Lists

Postby DaveM » Fri Jul 07, 2017 11:41 am

I would suggest that during this extra list checking time limit, some teams should recheck their rosters. There are a number submitted in the wrong format I.e. no Team nationality etc. which would otherwise incur a penalty. Austria for one. So in the amnesty period we now have, check and recheck your teams lists everybody!
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Re: ETC FoW 2017 Lists

Postby Trick08 » Fri Jul 07, 2017 11:48 am

TheMarko wrote:Shoot while there is still time . . . Your shooting phase is almost over . . .

Well we think there may be a problem with the bulge TD lists...we hope not...but apparently the errata that fixes the US Tank Destroyers rules on page 238 of the MRB and essentially removes the recon status of TD platoons does not cover Bulge. So technically all of a TD platoon from Bulge, as listed, is a recon platoon not just the security section. Now we are hoping no one is going to rock up and try to use this as an exploit...but given past experience maybe we need to sort this out before dice start rolling?

Trick

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Re: ETC FoW 2017 Lists

Postby tarnowski1 » Fri Jul 07, 2017 12:01 pm

Trick08 wrote:
TheMarko wrote:Shoot while there is still time . . . Your shooting phase is almost over . . .

Well we think there may be a problem with the bulge TD lists...we hope not...but apparently the errata that fixes the US Tank Destroyers rules on page 238 of the MRB and essentially removes the recon status of TD platoons does not cover Bulge. So technically all of a TD platoon from Bulge, as listed, is a recon platoon not just the security section. Now we are hoping no one is going to rock up and try to use this as an exploit...but given past experience maybe we need to sort this out before dice start rolling?

Trick


Under the HQ for tank destroyer company in Battle for the Bulge list 'A Tank Destroyer Platoon uses the US Tank Destroyers special rules found on page 238 of the rulebook. ',

in lessons from the front 'Pages 238-239: Tank Destroyers: Replace rules with revised rules'

Doesn't that cover it?

Regards
Matt
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Re: ETC FoW 2017 Lists

Postby Gothmog » Fri Jul 07, 2017 12:05 pm

yup
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Re: ETC FoW 2017 Lists

Postby Trick08 » Fri Jul 07, 2017 12:11 pm

tarnowski1 wrote:
Trick08 wrote:
TheMarko wrote:Shoot while there is still time . . . Your shooting phase is almost over . . .

Well we think there may be a problem with the bulge TD lists...we hope not...but apparently the errata that fixes the US Tank Destroyers rules on page 238 of the MRB and essentially removes the recon status of TD platoons does not cover Bulge. So technically all of a TD platoon from Bulge, as listed, is a recon platoon not just the security section. Now we are hoping no one is going to rock up and try to use this as an exploit...but given past experience maybe we need to sort this out before dice start rolling?

Trick


Under the HQ for tank destroyer company in Battle for the Bulge list 'A Tank Destroyer Platoon uses the US Tank Destroyers special rules found on page 238 of the rulebook. ',

in lessons from the front 'Pages 238-239: Tank Destroyers: Replace rules with revised rules'

Doesn't that cover it?

Regards
Matt

So the rules are not briefing based? LFTF predates Bulge so that does not matter? If this is the case then no issue and that is what we had hoped would be the finding. Potential exploit closed:-)

Trick

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Re: ETC FoW 2017 Lists

Postby tarnowski1 » Fri Jul 07, 2017 12:21 pm

Trick08 wrote:
tarnowski1 wrote:
Trick08 wrote:Well we think there may be a problem with the bulge TD lists...we hope not...but apparently the errata that fixes the US Tank Destroyers rules on page 238 of the MRB and essentially removes the recon status of TD platoons does not cover Bulge. So technically all of a TD platoon from Bulge, as listed, is a recon platoon not just the security section. Now we are hoping no one is going to rock up and try to use this as an exploit...but given past experience maybe we need to sort this out before dice start rolling?

Trick


Under the HQ for tank destroyer company in Battle for the Bulge list 'A Tank Destroyer Platoon uses the US Tank Destroyers special rules found on page 238 of the rulebook. ',

in lessons from the front 'Pages 238-239: Tank Destroyers: Replace rules with revised rules'

Doesn't that cover it?

Regards
Matt

So the rules are not briefing based? LFTF predates Bulge so that does not matter? If this is the case then no issue and that is what we had hoped would be the finding. Potential exploit closed:-)

Trick


in legal terms

LFTF modified the rules on p238 before Bulge is published.
Bulge uses rules on p238 which have already been modified.

:D

Regards
Matt
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Re: ETC FoW 2017 Lists

Postby Roger » Fri Jul 07, 2017 12:35 pm

Thanks to Scott from Australia.. really minor tweak on our British Churchill Tank list. The 25pdrs are Corp rather than 15th Division.. exactly the same stats just as support has to be from a single division or corps and as we have 51st HD UC's couldn't have 15th support as well but is exactly the same.
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Re: ETC FoW 2017 Lists

Postby Floody2 » Fri Jul 07, 2017 1:39 pm

Roger wrote:
TheMarko wrote:Guys,

Remember the first and foremost rule guys . . . HAVE FUN . . . I want to enjoy my stay in Salamanca, so behave please . . . :D



Perhaps we should have a 1 small point penalty in the rules pack next year for not having fun....

:twisted:


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Re: ETC FoW 2017 Lists

Postby Angelfred » Fri Jul 07, 2017 1:40 pm

@Floody : my man :)
Over a drink and a smoke ? Anytime ;)
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Re: ETC FoW 2017 Lists

Postby Gothmog » Fri Jul 07, 2017 1:43 pm

don't we all? :P
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Re: ETC FoW 2017 Lists

Postby Angelfred » Fri Jul 07, 2017 2:02 pm

+1 Bill ;)
Aaaahhh, so missed that for so long !
Can't wait to get trashed talk again !
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Re: ETC FoW 2017 Lists

Postby Dacid » Fri Jul 07, 2017 2:35 pm

Nah its the local ambience, culture and beer we come for :)

oh yeah play a few games as well.

look forward to seeing all.

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Re: ETC FoW 2017 Lists

Postby Robin Spence » Fri Jul 07, 2017 2:41 pm

Dacid wrote:Nah its the local ambience, culture and beer we come for :)

oh yeah play a few games as well.

look forward to seeing all.

Cid


Errrr Cid you forgot the Wine !!!!!
oh nearly forgot and the Food :lol:
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Re: ETC FoW 2017 Lists

Postby stevec » Fri Jul 07, 2017 3:14 pm

Because of the reply I believe he is talking purely of the USA list.it is clear the tankovy platoons must be the same and because the lend lease and tankovy are different types of platoons it can be interpreted the way USA have and therefore because of the answer the USA list is correct and the others are not because they are using two platoons of the same type which must be of the same type, even as it stands.

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Re: ETC FoW 2017 Lists

Postby stevec » Fri Jul 07, 2017 3:17 pm

The only thing I would say even though this is unpleasant two of those lists are wrong and the other interpretation.

If a list is wrong it needs to me amended to cause the player as little distress as possible.

As for Ullicks Brazilian haircut all I can do is applaud your attitude.

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Re: ETC FoW 2017 Lists

Postby DaveM » Fri Jul 07, 2017 4:23 pm

stevec wrote:As for Ullicks Brazilian haircut all I can do is applaud your attitude.


He's clearly planning to be "cool" in the heat...... :shock:
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Re: ETC FoW 2017 Lists

Postby TheTonyDavis » Fri Jul 07, 2017 5:02 pm

Get back on here after a nights rest and not sure where we stand. There are calls for refs to decide if we should have to change a legal list or not but who are the refs? I didn't think we had any, yet anyways. I caution the community on making a team change a list that turns out to be legal after contacting BF even though some thought it was illegal before. That starts a slippery slope there.

In regards to the answer from Phil, I don't understand how that can be construed as anything other than approval based on RAW. He makes it clear that historically it isn't acceptable but the first sentence is clear, 'the list technically conforms to the PO rules'. And we don't want to start down that path of vetoeing lists because they aren't historically accurate because that net will be much wider! ;)

Personal comments done now, speaking for our team what are the plans? We are planning practice this weekend and need to know what list to practice!

For the other PO lists with the mixed Tankovy tank types, our list was unique for the PO rule using the Inomarochnikiy and Tankovy companies. The teams that used only Tankovy companies will need to adjust their lists to comply with the rule though.
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Re: ETC FoW 2017 Lists

Postby stevec » Fri Jul 07, 2017 6:08 pm

Exactly Tony I agree with you.

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Re: ETC FoW 2017 Lists

Postby Trick08 » Sat Jul 08, 2017 3:17 am

Hi All

Team Australia can concluded its list checking with the following outcomes

The following teams are good:

Austria, Australia, Denmark, England, Finland, Germany, Greece, Italy, Netherlands, New Zealand, Northern Ireland, Poland, Portugal, Romania, Scotland, Serbia, South Africa, Spain, Switzerland and United Nations

Canada - needs extra half tracks in the Towed TD unit as you must have 1 x 1/2 track per gun, points cost would be affected in towed td

France - can't take Canadian 25pdrs I. Armoured rifle company

Ireland - forward detachment has mixed tanks
Ireland- Brazil list fix happening, correction posted

Russia - forward detachment set has mixed tanks

United States - forward detachment has mixed tanks...fix happening, correction posted

Wales - contacted already, Mark has already posted a correction the arty wrong selection box was chosen for arty in his Churchill list.

Regards

Team Australia


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