ETC FoW 2017 Lists

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TheTonyDavis
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Re: ETC FoW 2017 Lists

Postby TheTonyDavis » Fri Jul 07, 2017 4:21 am

Spackledgoat wrote:
I don't think this interpretation is very strong at all given the text.

If the interpretation was as you propose, there would be no reason for the Gvardesyskiy Tankovy Company to be listed, nor would there be any reason for the Peredovoye Utryad HQ be listed. There is no option for different types of Guards tankovy tanks (the only have T-34/85) and there is no second HQ option to occupy a second box.

If your interpretation was correct, only the Tankovy Company and Inomarochnikiy Company would need to be listed. However, the text includes the other company types. It does not, however, list the light tank companies. If the intent was merely to list all types of tank companies possible, that company would be listed. We have to assume that the drafters of the text did not simply add language without meaning.

Compare this with the interpretation that says all tanks within the stated universe of units (the HQ and combat/weapons medium tank companies) must the same type. There are no extraneous listed units and the exclusion of the light tank company functions to exclude the light tanks from the universe of restricted units.

In any case, I agree that we should wait and hear from BF for a definitive answer.


Maybe you are unfamiliar with Soviet lists but the only way to get a full ten tank company of T34/85 is the Gvardesyskiy Tankovy Comany. That has to be included simply for that purpose. As to my interpretation, I stand by it and have the backing of BF in it. Sorry for any confusion though!
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Re: ETC FoW 2017 Lists

Postby stevec » Fri Jul 07, 2017 4:35 am

Firstly Tony it's good we've had a reply and in usual Phil style ;)

I believe you do need to change the list to bring legal. The change you have offered is adequate. As long as other parts of the list are not changed. Even though you have changed both platoons which isn't really minimum change in reality, it is better that also changing or spending points on other parts of the list.

It's upto the refs now but imo it MUST be legal.

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Re: ETC FoW 2017 Lists

Postby TheTonyDavis » Fri Jul 07, 2017 5:15 am

stevec wrote:Firstly Tony it's good we've had a reply and in usual Phil style ;)

I believe you do need to change the list to bring legal. The change you have offered is adequate. As long as other parts of the list are not changed. Even though you have changed both platoons which isn't really minimum change in reality, it is better that also changing or spending points on other parts of the list.

It's upto the refs now but imo it MUST be legal.


First, we have an answer from Phil and the list IS legal. So let's clear that up right now!

I am confused what you mean by changing multiple platoons. We have to drop the Lee platoon to make it as the briefing was intended to be and in doing so spend those 325 points to buy 7 FT Shermans out of the same Weapons platoon box. How is that not the most minimal change?!?!
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Re: ETC FoW 2017 Lists

Postby graham » Fri Jul 07, 2017 5:44 am

Here's my twopennorth:

    Tony's proposal to change the list and get 7 Shermans seems good. (Don't sweat Steve's "minimal" remark - the message I took from his post is that he also agreed to Tony's idea.)

    The Irish proposal to change their list also seems good.

Again, I'm not touching the SP penalty/no SP penalty issue as that is for captains (or referees).
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Re: ETC FoW 2017 Lists

Postby Trick08 » Fri Jul 07, 2017 6:14 am

graham wrote:Here's my twopennorth:

    Tony's proposal to change the list and get 7 Shermans seems good. (Don't sweat Steve's "minimal" remark - the message I took from his post is that he also agreed to Tony's idea.)

    The Irish proposal to change their list also seems good.

Again, I'm not touching the SP penalty/no SP penalty issue as that is for captains (or referees).

Look I think teams USA's response is great. The platoon change is minimal and works and their proactivity deserves recognition in a quite grey area, so I am happy for changes like this for other teams as well with no penalty...nice leadership Tony.

Team Australia votes "good on ya" and no penalty.

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Re: ETC FoW 2017 Lists

Postby stevec » Fri Jul 07, 2017 6:31 am

Tony there is no need to get so heated. I was agreeing with you.


I think you think people are out to get you, that's not the case Tony people are trying to say ways of resolving this in an amicable way. As you know though Tony the lists must be legal irrelevant of your interpretation of it. It is not about just making you happy but the majority of players who may feel it needs to be done right else there is no need for checking of lists.
Last edited by stevec on Fri Jul 07, 2017 6:46 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: ETC FoW 2017 Lists

Postby Dacid » Fri Jul 07, 2017 6:43 am

pizzaguardian wrote:Well ask and ya shall receive.

LIST CORRECTION HAS BEEN EXTENDED UNTIL AUGUST 10TH MONDAY 23:59 CEST

But after i really have to send the lists to printing, there is a queue for that you know :)


Presume this is supposed to be 10th July ;)

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Re: ETC FoW 2017 Lists

Postby TheTonyDavis » Fri Jul 07, 2017 6:47 am

stevec wrote:Tony there is no need to get so heated. I was agreeing with you.

However you have changed both platoons because of the number of Sherman's it has. So yes it is not minimal changes but seems adequate.

I think you think people are out to get you, that's not the case Tony people are trying to say ways of resolving this in an amicable way. As you know though Tony the lists must be legal irrelevant of your interpretation of it. It is not about just making you happy but the majority of players who may feel it needs to be done right else there is no need for checking of lists.


Steve you seem confused about a couple things here. First, the original list we submitted is no longer up for discussion about its legality. Phil has already answered that and the list we originally submitted is legal but not historical. That wasn't the intention in the briefing design though. Again, as per the RAW, the original list submitted is legal andthat is no longer opinion that is fact.

Second, we are not adjusting any second platoon in option B. We are leaving all platoons unchanged from the original list except for removing the Weapons Platoon Tankovy Comapny which has 9 Lee tanks and replacing that with a new weapons platoon out of the same box the Lees were in of an Inomarochnikiy Tankovy Compang of 7 FT Shermans. There is no changes made to any platoons in the original submitted list other than that!

And there is no heat here, we have A/C throughout the US. No idea where that is even being implied either!
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Re: ETC FoW 2017 Lists

Postby sovietpride » Fri Jul 07, 2017 7:00 am

Sorry mates, but Im getting confused with this thread. Has Tony send the captains a mail with Phils response and the proposed list changes? If so I didnt receive them.

Perhaps we need the captains to receive a mail with all the propose changes to the different lists or a folder on the drive with the "old" and "new" lists, so we can all be clear about what has changed.
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Re: ETC FoW 2017 Lists

Postby graham » Fri Jul 07, 2017 7:16 am

Sovietpride - Tony posted Phil's reply. Look further up this thread.
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Re: ETC FoW 2017 Lists

Postby stevec » Fri Jul 07, 2017 7:29 am

I think yours may have been legal because you were using lendlease and tanks very rather than two tankovy. Even though they didn't mean it to be legal too.

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Re: ETC FoW 2017 Lists

Postby graham » Fri Jul 07, 2017 7:48 am

Steve - you and Tony have agreed on the solution for the USA. Not meaning to be rude but now would seem a good time for the two of you to stop discussing the US list.
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Re: ETC FoW 2017 Lists

Postby Gothmog » Fri Jul 07, 2017 8:08 am

That's funny Graham. I like your "diplomacy." I would expect nothing less from a true Eurocrat. :P

So what is the resolution then? Unless I'm missing something, Phil's response above says that the lists are legal so no changes need to be made.

As for historical, I doubt most of our lists would qualify. :shock: :o :lol:
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Re: ETC FoW 2017 Lists

Postby tarnowski1 » Fri Jul 07, 2017 8:18 am

Gothmog wrote:That's funny Graham. I like your "diplomacy." I would expect nothing less from a true Eurocrat. :P

So what is the resolution then? Unless I'm missing something, Phil's response above says that the lists are legal so no changes need to be made.

As for historical, I doubt most of our lists would qualify. :shock: :o :lol:


Phil has says its legal, by the rulespack we cant enforce or allow changes to those lists now. They stand as they are. In my opinion only obviously.

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Re: ETC FoW 2017 Lists

Postby Trick08 » Fri Jul 07, 2017 8:27 am

tarnowski1 wrote:
Gothmog wrote:That's funny Graham. I like your "diplomacy." I would expect nothing less from a true Eurocrat. :P

So what is the resolution then? Unless I'm missing something, Phil's response above says that the lists are legal so no changes need to be made.

As for historical, I doubt most of our lists would qualify. :shock: :o :lol:


Phil has says its legal, by the rulespack we cant enforce or allow changes to those lists now. They stand as they are. In my opinion only obviously.

Regards
Matt

Refs need to talk offline and make a call and just get this done and dusted

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Re: ETC FoW 2017 Lists

Postby MadCat » Fri Jul 07, 2017 8:40 am

For me Phil gave a non-answer, if I answered my boss with a "would appear" and then said " it does skirt the intention of the rule" I would be asked for a clarification and a yes or no.

The only thing he does say clearly is:

"That really leaves it as a matter between you and your opponent to hash out."

I don't know if it's just me but from reading Phil email I don't get a clear view of the legality of the list, just a sort it out yourself.

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Re: ETC FoW 2017 Lists

Postby TheMarko » Fri Jul 07, 2017 8:49 am

Guys,

if I understand correctly, although many of you might not be happy with it, the list is legal (confirmed by BF). All the spears that were broken over this can now be mended. Tony gave an option valid of merit although he was not obliged to do. Give the man some credit and focus on fixing other problems. I'd go for proposed list change, as it is the middle grounds, so less unhappy campers. If applicable, solution can also be applied to other two problematic lists.
As for Irish easy army list. I think it was the honest mistake and I don't see the problem with the proposed change.

Remember the first and foremost rule guys . . . HAVE FUN . . . I want to enjoy my stay in Salamanca, so behave please . . . :D

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Re: ETC FoW 2017 Lists

Postby graham » Fri Jul 07, 2017 8:55 am

Trick08 wrote:Refs need to talk offline and make a call and just get this done and dusted

Trick


Amen to that.
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Re: ETC FoW 2017 Lists

Postby Trick08 » Fri Jul 07, 2017 9:00 am

TheMarko wrote:Guys,

if I understand correctly, although many of you might not be happy with it, the list is legal (confirmed by BF). All the spears that were broken over this can now be mended. Tony gave an option valid of merit although he was not obliged to do. Give the man some credit and focus on fixing other problems. I'd go for proposed list change, as it is the middle grounds, so less unhappy campers. If applicable, solution can also be applied to other two problematic lists.
As for Irish easy army list. I think it was the honest mistake and I don't see the problem with the proposed change.

Remember the first and foremost rule guys . . . HAVE FUN . . . I want to enjoy my stay in Salamanca, so behave please . . . :D

Cheers,
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Re: ETC FoW 2017 Lists

Postby Arkon » Fri Jul 07, 2017 9:03 am

tarnowski1 wrote:
Gothmog wrote:That's funny Graham. I like your "diplomacy." I would expect nothing less from a true Eurocrat. :P

So what is the resolution then? Unless I'm missing something, Phil's response above says that the lists are legal so no changes need to be made.

As for historical, I doubt most of our lists would qualify. :shock: :o :lol:


Phil has says its legal, by the rulespack we cant enforce or allow changes to those lists now. They stand as they are. In my opinion only obviously.

Regards
Matt


Hi Matt,

hasn´t Phil stated something in the past a few times just to change this only one day later :mrgreen:

Just a thought :D

Cheers

Thomas

Nevertheless, the swap from Lees to Shermans seems ok to me
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Re: ETC FoW 2017 Lists

Postby Frogdog » Fri Jul 07, 2017 9:04 am

Team Ireland thanks Marko, FoW ETC referee, for his ruling. Apologies everyone once again.
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Re: ETC FoW 2017 Lists

Postby Gothmog » Fri Jul 07, 2017 9:05 am

All the damn time Thomas. Welcome #-o :? :lol: to FoW.
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Re: ETC FoW 2017 Lists

Postby Mongol » Fri Jul 07, 2017 9:22 am

The more I read, the harder is to understand what we are doing/
So If I'm not mistaken Phil wrote that list is correct, right?
And there is no need to change list?
Or we are waiting for the Refs to decide?
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Re: ETC FoW 2017 Lists

Postby sovietpride » Fri Jul 07, 2017 9:30 am

I would really like a link to the modified lists.

Thanks in advance.
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Re: ETC FoW 2017 Lists

Postby Mongol » Fri Jul 07, 2017 9:36 am

sovietpride wrote:I would really like a link to the modified lists.
Thanks in advance.


Sure, no problem:
https://vk.com/doc864910_447598963?hash=89ae8d9eb465060f98&dl=84291fb1ce6d2edd83

Anyway if its possible we would prefer to keep original one, but if we have to change it, this variant would do.
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Re: ETC FoW 2017 Lists

Postby Frogdog » Fri Jul 07, 2017 9:47 am

If possible, Team Ireland would also like to keep its original Soviet list, as this is the list we have models for, and sourcing alternative models might prove troublesome this close to the ETC.
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Re: ETC FoW 2017 Lists

Postby Arkon » Fri Jul 07, 2017 9:59 am

Are we allowed then to maybe change our list to this (as we have learned "legal") selection? Our Player was thinking about this Mathilda/Lee combination but hasnt gone for cause to us the WRITTEN wording was absolutely clear
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Re: ETC FoW 2017 Lists

Postby Angelfred » Fri Jul 07, 2017 10:11 am

Just a though here …
The only think there is to win in ETC is RESPECT.
Nothing more.

Kicking everybody’s asses and not being clapped by the audience in the end is far worse than coming last.
2 topics :
- Ireland’s Brazilian list
- Ireland/USA/Russia Peredovoye lists

@Frogdog : we may had discrepancies in the past, but I RESPECT A LOT your attitude. You had the courtesy to warm everybody about potentiality of having 2 US-like infantry with Arti-parks months before the event, and the technic is legal. You also had the courtesy to spot what wasn’t spotted : your first list doesn’t comply to this obscure PDF from the Brazilians almost nobody have and you have proposed a change to make your list legal. Much, much credits to you. To me, it’s a bonus on the “Best Sportmanship Trophy”. And of course no penalty !

@Teams Ireland/USA/Russia : As Madcat, I believe Phil’s answer is totally unsatisfactory. As always.
He doesn’t answer on the wording which Native speaking English persons states clearly indicate your Peredovoye can’t be built this way.
It’s Phil’s answer : for those of you who know Team Yankee, it’s amazing how Phil can change his own rules…
Besides, if you think Phil’s answer states in favor of the “no identical tanks approach”, it can only but give other Teams grieves : should we know before-hand Phil’s answer, then yes, we (general we) may either have considered more deeply the Peredovoye, and the Teams fielding the Peredovoye may have field it differently.
It’s the problem when someone is changing the rules in the middle of the game or when not everybody believe playing with the same rules.
As always, Phil’s answer is very poor and leave people unhappy.
To be technical, some can also argue that Phil’s answer can’t be accepted : don’t we have a limit date for FAQ and rules questions ?

But never mind, you read the comments, you have Phil’s answer, and you have ETC’s judges decision.
The fact that some may not like it is irrelevant.

Personal opinion (and not necessary all Team France’s opinion) :
1. I didn’t think it wasn’t possible to do it your way
2. If I get paired up against your PO list, it’s not this factor that will determine winner/loser
3. There will never be a “good” answer to the situation here.

So you basically can stay with your lists as they are. You are in your right.
I know full well how complicated it is to train with a list for months, and all the sudden, having to change it 4 weeks before the event.
Also, if someone tells me to change my list and change it for me, I would be utterly pissed off.

I find Tony’s approach very gentleman : if the issue is the 2 Tanks platoons not being identical, then asking to modify, for the same amount of points, the two platoons, is, to me, very fine.
It doesn’t modify the economy of the list, its strategy, its balance.
You still keep the initiative on how your list is changed, and no one is forcing your hand.
It make it clear and clean, and without subject to discussion.
True gentleman approach.

Again, the only think there is to win in ETC is RESPECT.
Personally, I would be very, very, very sad if my opponent thinks I’ve beaten him with something he is considering as illegal : where is the respect here ?

Pizzaguardian had given extra days for verifying the lists.

It is my opinion you guys have two options, which are totally up to you :
- either stick with your PO list
- or modify it the “Tony’s way” so there is nobody left unhappy.

Whatever you choose, the rest of us will comply because we have ETC’s judges statement.
It’s just questions of “how would we like our opponent to think of us ?” and “do we believe we are clean and above reproaches ?”.

I sincerely don’t have the answers to these, it’s your opinion and yours only.
Again, whatever your choice, it shall be respected.
Respect works both way, so if you are fine with the answers and change nothing, then let’s be fine with it and respect your choice.

Can’t wait to see you all again in 4 weeks !

Cheers from France,

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Re: ETC FoW 2017 Lists

Postby Gothmog » Fri Jul 07, 2017 10:16 am

Quit taking sense Fred. It's unbecoming. [-X
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Re: ETC FoW 2017 Lists

Postby Angelfred » Fri Jul 07, 2017 10:31 am

@Bill: given the answers above, no I don't think so... can't be more open hand and more compliant ...
Just wishing to make everybody happy with the result, considering all points of view and perspective, as it is a shi*y situation.
Hopefully a solution will be found amongst gentlemen...

#SupportiveOfAllParties
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