ETC FoW - Frequently Asked Questions

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Re: ETC FoW - Frequently Asked Questions

Postby Jonny65 » Thu Jun 12, 2014 10:04 am

I imagine that the newest LFTF(12/06/14) will be the final update before our deadline.
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Re: ETC FoW - Frequently Asked Questions

Postby Rugi » Tue Jul 15, 2014 9:35 am

As there were no more questions for some time I can post my propositions and clarifications here. Please feel free to discuss and make a constructive criticism.

Can I use Mike Target without the entire battery?

I don't see why not?

Q: With regards to SS-Kampfgruppe Arnheim (Bridge by Bridge pg. 102) : Can one combat attach HQ weapons and/or teams from Light SS AA platoon to a compulsury combat platoon which is an allied platoon?
A: Nothing in the rules but would make sense to rule it as a NO

Q: Can a goliath be released from a team which is currently riding in transport or riding on top of a tank?
A: If the transport or a tank team carrying the team controling did not move it can be released normally.

Q: Can a team shoot in the shooting step after releasing a demolition carrier in the movement step?
A: Yes (?) and it doesn't even count as moved in the shooting step so can fire it's full ROF.

Q: Kampfgruppe Graebner and possible others; Can HQ command teams join to platoons which have the option to make a spearhead deployment and move with them?
A: Fixed in the newest LFTF

Q1:For instance, after assaulting an artillery battery my opponent still has one gun within 4" of my assaulting teams and its command team is within 8" but outside 4". My opponent passes the motivation test to counterattack. Therefore there are no assaulting teams within 4" of my platoon. How does the counterattack occur? Does the command team have the right to move 4"? If not, can the counterattack even take place?
Q2:In connection with the previous question. Say my 3 tanks have assaulted a position of dug infantry troops. The opponent passes it's motivation check and declares that the only assaulting team is going to be one infantry team outside 4" but within 8" of at least one tank and it declares it is going to use sit tight in bulletproof cover rule. Since there are no more teams within 4" of the only assaulting team, the infantry platoon has won the assault. (!?!)
A:Although not explicitely written in the rulebook, I would suggest that the rules for counterattacking are almost the same as for assaulting. You cannot move into contact unless you have at least one ASSAULTING team within 4" of enemy defending teams. But the question we have to decide upon now is if the platoon is allowed to stand still in the counterattack and not having any assaulting teams?
If we accept this solution to the first part of the problem, then in the Q1 the answer is that the infantry command team within 8" but outside 4" of the enemy team cannot move closer.

Q:Can pinned down armored reconn teams lift GtG? (Phils intentions were clear but the rules support the opposite side and say that they cannot)
A: Armored teams cannot be pinned at all (as per game designer's intentions). Therefore, pinned armored reconn teams can lift GtG, pinned tank teams can remote control demolition carriers and an infantry team joining a tank platoon composed of only armored tank teams in assault phase which received 5 hits during shooting phase can fire with its normal ROF for defensive fire as it does not count as pinned down.
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Re: ETC FoW - Frequently Asked Questions

Postby Rugi » Wed Jul 16, 2014 8:00 am

No comments?? Even to the last suggestion?
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Re: ETC FoW - Frequently Asked Questions

Postby Shawn Morris » Fri Jul 18, 2014 6:29 pm

We have been forming some of our own questions and answers on our team forum.
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Re: ETC FoW - Frequently Asked Questions

Postby deka » Fri Jul 18, 2014 7:13 pm

And where is yout team forum?

Can you share your knowledge with us? Please?
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Re: ETC FoW - Frequently Asked Questions

Postby Rugi » Thu Jul 24, 2014 12:36 pm

So Johnny, what shall we do with these?
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Re: ETC FoW - Frequently Asked Questions

Postby Roger » Thu Jul 24, 2014 6:16 pm

Rugi wrote:
Q: Can a team shoot in the shooting step after releasing a demolition carrier in the movement step?
A: Yes (?) and it doesn't even count as moved in the shooting step so can fire it's full ROF.


Wrong.

Page 233 summary , second bullet point :"instead of shooting"

The demo carrier moves in the movement phase but explodes im the shooting phase.
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Re: ETC FoW - Frequently Asked Questions

Postby Rugi » Thu Jul 24, 2014 7:02 pm

Finally a comment, thank you Roger!

This is exactly the case we need to debate here since there is nothing to turn to in the rules.

For instance, LFTF says that the summaries are not considered rules and so the rules itself have precedence if there is a difference between a rules and a summary.

In the case of demolition carriers it says on pg. 233 (Switch to remote control) that a demolition carrier can be moved instead of moving the controlling team and that the target is picked already at the end of this movement, while exploding occurs in the shooting step.
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Re: ETC FoW - Frequently Asked Questions

Postby Roger » Fri Jul 25, 2014 9:04 am

Rugi wrote:Finally a comment, thank you Roger!

This is exactly the case we need to debate here since there is nothing to turn to in the rules.

For instance, LFTF says that the summaries are not considered rules and so the rules itself have precedence if there is a difference between a rules and a summary.

In the case of demolition carriers it says on pg. 233 (Switch to remote control) that a demolition carrier can be moved instead of moving the controlling team and that the target is picked already at the end of this movement, while exploding occurs in the shooting step.


Conversely it also does not say that you can shoot in the shooting step whereas it does say in the summary that you may not in clear English.

More importantly is the case of borgwards within a RC unit. Can you move them in the movement step whilst keeping in command of the control vehicles which remain stationary and then launch moving a further 16 inches?

As it happens I think this question is pretty defunct in regard to the ETC though as I don't remember seeing anyone with them BTW...

I nearly took them but as it was heavy tanks or RC tanks I decided against them all together
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Re: ETC FoW - Frequently Asked Questions

Postby Rugi » Sat Jul 26, 2014 7:44 am

Roger wrote:
Rugi wrote:Finally a comment, thank you Roger!

This is exactly the case we need to debate here since there is nothing to turn to in the rules.

For instance, LFTF says that the summaries are not considered rules and so the rules itself have precedence if there is a difference between a rules and a summary.

In the case of demolition carriers it says on pg. 233 (Switch to remote control) that a demolition carrier can be moved instead of moving the controlling team and that the target is picked already at the end of this movement, while exploding occurs in the shooting step.


Conversely it also does not say that you can shoot in the shooting step whereas it does say in the summary that you may not in clear English.


The rules say that the demolition carrier can be moved 16" instead of moving while the summary says that the demolition carrier can be moved 16" instead of shooting by a controlling team that did not move as well.
Since the rest of the rules say that a demolition carrier is moved during the movement step and that the target is picked already at the end of its movement I must say that the summary seems very much out of its place since they talk about moving the demolition carrier instead of shooting while the rules say it is done instead of moving and that the movement is done in the shooting phase (since it is done instead of shooting) while the rules say that it is is moved in the movement phase.

In both cases there is nothing in the rules that would prevent you from moving a borgward on its own first and then launching it another 16". Only the controlling team cannot move in order to switch a demolition carrier to remote control and the controlling team and its demolition carrier operate separately until switched to remote control (which can be done at anytime in the movement phase since the exact timing is not defined).

Another one for the list of Questions:

Q: If, for example, my tank company is composed of 6 platoons with vehicles and 2 infantry platoons without vehicles while being a defender in a scenario with mobile reserves, can I choose not to deploy any infantry platoons and deploy 2 platoons with vehicles directly on the board instead?
A: Yes you can. Mobile reserves allow you to put any or all of your infantry platoons in reserves voluntarily. If you put all of your platoons without vehicles into reserves you are allowed to deploy with two platoons with vehicles.
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Re: ETC FoW - Frequently Asked Questions

Postby TheTonyDavis » Sat Jul 26, 2014 3:06 pm

The Mobile Reserves has been hashed out before on the Forum. The IF statement in the third paragraph refers to the restriction to only deploy one mobile platoon in the board and wasn't intended to be circumvented by the 'any or all' before. You have to be forced into deploying a single platoon in order for the deployment of another platoon to be deployed.
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Re: ETC FoW - Frequently Asked Questions

Postby Jonny65 » Sat Jul 26, 2014 4:03 pm

I agree with Tony on the Mobile Reserves thing, that's the way it is played over here. My AT guns and Mortars have transports, not for mobility, but so that I can keep them in reserves in mobile reserves missions.
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Re: ETC FoW - Frequently Asked Questions

Postby Rugi » Sat Jul 26, 2014 10:25 pm

@TheTonyDavis:
So unless we put this in a document and there is a dispute about it during the ETC the judges will have to rule it as that a player is able to put all of its platoons without vehicles into reserves and thus getting two platoons with vehicles on the table.


@Johnny65 & TheTonyDavis:

It doesn't matter how one rule has been understood in a community if it has been understood in a wrong way. Just take Johnny's example for instance. Adding transports to a platoon just so it can be put into reserves!? I have to say it is silly.

I don't see any reason why we should not allow such a maneuver since we could even limit the effect of a lucky dice throw when two fully mechanised armies face each other (patton vs. patoon, tankovy vs tankovy,...).
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Re: ETC FoW - Frequently Asked Questions

Postby Arkon » Sat Jul 26, 2014 11:41 pm

@ Rugi, where is it written that you are allowed to put the infantry in reserve and instead may put two mobile units at the table?
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Re: ETC FoW - Frequently Asked Questions

Postby Jonny65 » Sat Jul 26, 2014 11:43 pm

From stepping up to version 3:
"Mobile Reserves now allows two platoons on table at the start of the game if there are no platoons without vehicles."

That's hardly definitive, but it seems to lean more towards my interpretation than yours. How is it played in other parts of the world?
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Re: ETC FoW - Frequently Asked Questions

Postby Rugi » Sun Jul 27, 2014 7:14 am

@Arkon: Rulebook Pg. 269 (Mobile Reserves; 1st paragraph). "You may deploy any or all platoons without vehicles on the table" This means that if you wish you have the option to put platoon without vehicles in reserves.

3rd paragraph: "If this would result in a single platoon being the table, the defender may deploy a second platoon with vehicles, as long as this leaves at least two platoons in reserves."

Why should your option to deploy any or all platoons be excluded from the further rule in the 3rd paragraph?

@Johnny65: It is not a rule. It is a summary or a description of a rule which in general holds but the rules themselves allow you to do more. Like to put your infantry platoons in reserves to obtain a second vehicled platoon.

I think players in our community played it the same way because they thought it is how you have to play it. So once when a panzer list played against us tanks and the german player was basically forced to deploy one tank platoon and two nebelwerfers we checked how the rules are actually written. From that point we play as that you have that choice.
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Re: ETC FoW - Frequently Asked Questions

Postby Arkon » Sun Jul 27, 2014 8:51 am

@ Johnny, same with us, if you have one platoon without vehicles you are only allowed to place one mobile platoon or, of cource, leave the vehicles from certain platoons of table.

@ rugi, I guess the summary on page 269 tells what is the meaning of mobile reserves
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Re: ETC FoW - Frequently Asked Questions

Postby Rugi » Sun Jul 27, 2014 9:39 am

Arkon wrote:
@ rugi, I guess the summary on page 269 tells what is the meaning of mobile reserves


And that meaning is there in any case! You just have a choice to deploy in the other way as well if your deployment would otherwise be completely hindered.

I cannot really understand the reluctance towards this. One will not be able to profit from it any more than a company made completely out of platoons with vehicles. Also, it is supported by the rules and the fact is that the only argument against it is a summary which describes only the part of the rule which is unaffected by such reasoning, and in addition to that the summaries are officially (by LFTF) not rules.
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Re: ETC FoW - Frequently Asked Questions

Postby Arkon » Sun Jul 27, 2014 9:58 am

as anyone else seems to understand the mobile reserve rule the other way maybe you should consider if your point of view is wrong.

but you are right, it has to be sorted out before the event
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Re: ETC FoW - Frequently Asked Questions

Postby Rugi » Sun Jul 27, 2014 11:29 am

Since a specific situation had to occur so that we even checked it out we didn't know that you can do that for a long time as well so I can imagine how many other communities have not came across it yet.

That doesn't mean that everyone else is playing it correctly. Just remind yourself of defensive fire. How many players used to do defensive fire done by each platoon separately? In my 3 years of playing FoW it has not happened even once but that is still the way to do it by the rules and it can make a BIG difference.
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Re: ETC FoW - Frequently Asked Questions

Postby Jonny65 » Sun Jul 27, 2014 12:17 pm

I can set up a quick vote to decide how it will be played.

Over here it's just something you have to take into account when you're designing a tank list that may have to defend in this mission. Either you take enough infantry to hold on until the tanks arrive, or you make every unit mobile so that you can deploy 2 tank units.
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Re: ETC FoW - Frequently Asked Questions

Postby Rugi » Sun Jul 27, 2014 1:33 pm

Jonny65 wrote:I can set up a quick vote to decide how it will be played.


I am sorry but we shall not vote on this. We agreed in the beginning that we shall not change any rules and I stepped away from any propositions I've made to fix some apparent glitches (even though they are a part of the rules) before that.
If some of you disagree with the rule interpretation then back it up with an argument that is not an assumption that the intent was only a part of how one can deploy using mobile reserves.

What we should do is to send our disputes to the author of the game and adopt the answers as part of LFTF. It would be the most fair way to solve them and surely be part of the next LFTF anyway.
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Re: ETC FoW - Frequently Asked Questions

Postby Arkon » Sun Jul 27, 2014 1:51 pm

As it seem for now you are only one that disagrees so it is up to you to show something that isn't only an interpretation or assumption. Not the other way round.

What you have brought up so far is just, to me, an interpretation of yours and I don't follow you on this and I guess our whole Team will not.

@Johnny: Can we please decide on this asap cause it may make a difference in pairing
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Re: ETC FoW - Frequently Asked Questions

Postby Rugi » Sun Jul 27, 2014 2:03 pm

Arkon wrote:As it seem for now you are only one that disagrees so it is up to you to show something that isn't only an interpretation or assumption. Not the other way round.



I already have: "@Arkon: Rulebook Pg. 269 (Mobile Reserves; 1st paragraph). "You may deploy any or all platoons without vehicles on the table" This means that if you wish you have the option to put platoon without vehicles in reserves.

3rd paragraph: "If this would result in a single platoon being the table, the defender may deploy a second platoon with vehicles, as long as this leaves at least two platoons in reserves."

It is your turn to disprove the statement.
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Re: ETC FoW - Frequently Asked Questions

Postby Psychopath » Sun Jul 27, 2014 4:35 pm

Leaving platoons without vehicles in reserve is optional, deploying only 1 platoon with vehicles is not. So the "must be held in reserve" is stronger than the "may deploy any or all platoons".

In addition the 3rd paragraph refers to the situation, that the restriction of deploying only one platoon with vehicles leeds to only one platoon being deployed and not to only one deployed platoon because others are voluntarily in reserve.
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Re: ETC FoW - Frequently Asked Questions

Postby Rugi » Sun Jul 27, 2014 8:50 pm

Psychopath wrote:Leaving platoons without vehicles in reserve is optional, deploying only 1 platoon with vehicles is not. So the "must be held in reserve" is stronger than the "may deploy any or all platoons".

In addition the 3rd paragraph refers to the situation, that the restriction of deploying only one platoon with vehicles leads to only one platoon being deployed and not to only one deployed platoon because others are voluntarily in reserve.


Best argument so far. Still, the 3rd paragraph refers to everything before that and does not define the exact reason why only 1 platoon gets to be deployed.
One also has an option to deploy platoons without vehicles since the rules say "including those that wish to use their tanks and transports..." so the optionality is just as well on the side of the player which has all of his platoons with vehicles.

I've just discovered something else as well. 2nd paragraph states that the platoons with armored transport teams may deploy without their vehicles or be deployed in reserves. No other option is stated.
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Re: ETC FoW - Frequently Asked Questions

Postby Jonny65 » Sun Jul 27, 2014 10:16 pm

Okay, hopefully this will end it:
... the defender may deploy any or all platoons that do not have vehicles on the table, but only one platoon with vehicles.


The 'may' in the sentence is used in the formal sense meaning to allow something, in this case it allows you to choose between 'any or all'. Any is always one or more, so deploying none would mean that you've neither deployed any nor all, so that wouldn't be allowed.

Rugi wrote:I've just discovered something else as well. 2nd paragraph states that the platoons with armored transport teams may deploy without their vehicles or be deployed in reserves. No other option is stated.

Never noticed that before, I wonder if it is intentional?
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Re: ETC FoW - Frequently Asked Questions

Postby Rugi » Mon Jul 28, 2014 7:17 am

Okay, hopefully this will end it:
Quote:
... the defender may deploy any or all platoons that do not have vehicles on the table, but only one platoon with vehicles.


The 'may' in the sentence is used in the formal sense meaning to allow something, in this case it allows you to choose between 'any or all'. Any is always one or more, so deploying none would mean that you've neither deployed any nor all, so that wouldn't be allowed.


I do actually have to agree with this statement. That is the kind of argument I have been expecting from the beginning.

Rugi wrote:
I've just discovered something else as well. 2nd paragraph states that the platoons with armored transport teams may deploy without their vehicles or be deployed in reserves. No other option is stated.

Never noticed that before, I wonder if it is intentional?


I've wondered for some time what is even the point of the 2nd paragraph since it doesn't introduce anything new. It does seem intentional from that perspective as it the rule targets platoons with armored transport teams exclusively.

Correct me if I am wrong please but does this rule actually says that there is no way of deploying even a single platoon with armored transports on the table? Auch...

Edit: Spelling mistake correction
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Re: ETC FoW - Frequently Asked Questions

Postby Psychopath » Wed Jun 24, 2015 6:53 am

It's question time :-)

Is the base of motorcycle recon teams ignored as stated on page 10? Of course they have to be based like written on page 11, but for moving through gaps and ranges the base is ignored, correct?
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Re: ETC FoW - Frequently Asked Questions

Postby Roger » Thu Jul 02, 2015 9:28 am

Although not in LFTF Phil has clarified the mobile reserves battle rule and un-armoured transports, he has said that a defending platoon that starts on table may not bring forward unarmoured transports. See:


http://www.flamesofwar.com/Default.aspx ... =1#1338675

It was ruled on the 30th of June.

So will this be used for the ETC?
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