ETC FoW - Frequently Asked Questions

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ETC FoW - Frequently Asked Questions

Postby Jonny65 » Fri May 23, 2014 11:03 am

Rugi suggested that we collect up our questions and make an FAQ. So post here, if you have any rules questions you need answered. Also it might be worth adding in things that people often get wrong.
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Re: ETC FoW - Frequently Asked Questions

Postby Jonny65 » Fri May 23, 2014 11:04 am

Here's one that I had been playing wrong (apologies to my opponents):

Regarding large companies, when working out the VP, if the winning player has 9 or more platoons, he can ignore the first one lost for VP purposes. As it only affects the winning player, it has no effect in games that finish in a mutual loss. With the scoring system we have in place for the ETC, mutual losses will probably crop up quite frequently, so this one is worth remembering.
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Re: ETC FoW - Frequently Asked Questions

Postby Yllanes » Fri May 23, 2014 2:17 pm

No, Jonny, it does have effect in mutual losses, because you treat you opponent as the winner when computing your VPs. It's explained in the LFTF:

What effect does the Large Forces rule have on a Fair Fight mission?

In a Fair Fight mission where neither side won, each player treats their opponent as the winner. If their opponent had nine or more platoons, the Large Forces rule comes into play in that they ignore the first platoon they lost, thereby reducing their opponent’s Victory Points. They do not increase their own though. So, you have nine platoons and I have six. We both destroyed two platoons, but ran out of time in a Free-for-all mission. You treat me as the winner. I lost two platoons, so you get 3 Victory Points. I treat you as the winner. You lost two
platoons, but by the Large Forces rule, as the winner you ignore the first platoon destroyed. In effect, I treat you as having lost one platoon, so I get 2 Victory Points. The Large Forces rule changed what would have been a 3-all game into a 3-2 game in your favour.
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Re: ETC FoW - Frequently Asked Questions

Postby Yllanes » Fri May 23, 2014 2:20 pm

In general, I believe the rulebook + LFTF are quite comprehensive, but in my experience few people have studied the latter (especially the errata, there are some buried corrections like the restrictions to attachments from the HQ).
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Re: ETC FoW - Frequently Asked Questions

Postby Jonny65 » Fri May 23, 2014 6:31 pm

Good to know that I haven't been cheating after all :lol: .
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Re: ETC FoW - Frequently Asked Questions

Postby TheTonyDavis » Fri May 23, 2014 10:51 pm

Can you gun tank a jumbo?

Can I use Mike Target without the entire battery?

Or can we skip some of the frequently repeated questions? :D
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Re: ETC FoW - Frequently Asked Questions

Postby TheTonyDavis » Sun May 25, 2014 6:17 pm

Is it possible to do a permanent fix to shooting MGs at a Sherman platoon to possibly invalidate the Jumbos Lead the Way rule?

Phil's 'fix' in LFTF doesn't fix the issue and I think we need to make certain that any 'gentleman's agreement' isn't needed before every game.
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Re: ETC FoW - Frequently Asked Questions

Postby Yllanes » Sun May 25, 2014 10:08 pm

I think we really shouldn't introduce house rules. In any case, the best defense against that 'tactic' (other than the fact that I have never seen anyone use it) is that, since you can't predict how many hits you will make and your opponent can choose whether to 'activate' the Jumbo rule after the roll to hit, it is not really effective...
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Re: ETC FoW - Frequently Asked Questions

Postby Rugi » Mon May 26, 2014 9:32 am

Well, here are a couple:

Q1: With regards to SS-Kampfgruppe Arnheim (Bridge by Bridge pg. 102) : Can one combat attach HQ weapons and/or teams from Light SS AA platoon to a compulsury combat platoon which is an allied platoon? (I couldn't find any rules about this but I would expect that we rule this as NO).

Q2: Can a goliath be released from a team which is currently riding in transport or riding on top of a tank?
(I couldn't find anything that would suggest that it cannot be).

Q3: Kampfgruppe Graebner and possible others; Can HQ command teams join to platoons which have the option to make a spearhead deployment and move with them? (Phil stated on the forum that he is going to inlcude this in the newest LFTF but he did not.)

Q4a: For instance, after assaulting an artillery battery my opponent still has one gun within 4" of my assaulting teams and its command team is within 8" but outside 4". Therefore there are no assaulting teams within 4" of my platoon. How does the counterattack occur? Does the command team have the right to move 4"? If not, can the counterattack even take place?

Q4b: In connection with the previous question. Say my 3 tanks have assaulted a position of dug infantry troops. The opponent passes it's motivation check and declares that the only assaulting team is going to be one infantry team outside 4" but within 8" of at least one tank and it declares it is going to use sit tight in bulletproof cover rule. Since there are no more teams within 4" of the only assaulting team, the infantry platoon has won the assault. (!?!)

Answer to 4: Although not explicitely written in the rulebook, I would suggest that the rules for counterattacking are almost the same as for assaulting. You cannot move into contact unless you have at least one ASSAULTING team within 4" of enemy defending teams. But the question we have to decide upon now is if the platoon is allowed to stand still in the counterattack and not having any assaulting teams?
If we accept the solution to the first part of the problem, then in the Q4a the answer is that the infantry command team within 8" but outside 4" of the enemy team cannot move closer.

Q5: LFTF pg. 4: "If I hit a Warrior team three times
and each hit results in the team being
Destroyed, how many rolls do I make
using the Warrior Casualties rule?
One for each Destroyed result. Resolve
each in turn until the Warrior is
Destroyed or has survived."

Just like the one with ambushing minefields and barbed wire, this one makes no sense. Having a 2iC inf. team joined to a platoon can potentially prove deadly for the whole platoon. To avoid any kind of unnecessary complications this rule should be removed.

Q6: Can pinned down armored reconn teams lift GtG? (Phils intentions were clear but the rules support the opposite side and say that they cannot)

Q7: If there is a chance that a warrior/independent team may at any point of the match join an armored platoon, should the player keep count of the pinned down status of its armored platoons? (I would say yes).

Reminder: Say an US reconn platoon consisting of two jeeps and a Greyhound armored car is being shot at by Pumas. All of them are within 16 and all of them have the same status. Pumas score 3 MG hits and 3 main gun hits.
Scenarios:
*Greyhound . Both Jeeps get assigned one MG hit. Because of the "allocating mixed ratings" rule, the second hit on the Greyhound has to be an MG and the rule "mixed anti-tank ratings" on pg. 95 cannot change that since it is subject to all previous rules about hit allocation.

Feel free to discuss.
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Re: ETC FoW - Frequently Asked Questions

Postby TheTonyDavis » Tue May 27, 2014 4:57 am

Yllanes wrote:I think we really shouldn't introduce house rules. In any case, the best defense against that 'tactic' (other than the fact that I have never seen anyone use it) is that, since you can't predict how many hits you will make and your opponent can choose whether to 'activate' the Jumbo rule after the roll to hit, it is not really effective...


So we are going to HOPE that people don't use a rule that CAN break the Jumbo's Lead the Way rule?

I can assure you if it isn't outlawed I WILL be shooting the proper MG shots to bust the rule.

We really do need to fix this.
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Re: ETC FoW - Frequently Asked Questions

Postby Psychopath » Tue May 27, 2014 8:05 am

So we are going to HOPE that people don't use a rule that CAN break the Jumbo's Lead the Way rule?

I can assure you if it isn't outlawed I WILL be shooting the proper MG shots to bust the rule.

We really do need to fix this.

Why do we need to fix this? Where is the loophole in the actual ruling? Machine gun hits are allocated after the other hits, that is like ignoring them, or did I miss something?
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Re: ETC FoW - Frequently Asked Questions

Postby Rugi » Tue May 27, 2014 8:10 am

TheTonyDavis wrote:
Yllanes wrote:I think we really shouldn't introduce house rules. In any case, the best defense against that 'tactic' (other than the fact that I have never seen anyone use it) is that, since you can't predict how many hits you will make and your opponent can choose whether to 'activate' the Jumbo rule after the roll to hit, it is not really effective...


So we are going to HOPE that people don't use a rule that CAN break the Jumbo's Lead the Way rule?

I can assure you if it isn't outlawed I WILL be shooting the proper MG shots to bust the rule.

We really do need to fix this.


Agreed. Otherwise, some kind of a house rule will have to be invented in the middle of the tournament and the judges will have to be consistent with it. Better if we just find a solution for it now.

Yet, I am curious to hear how one can break the resolution in LFTF. Care to provide an example Tony?
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Re: ETC FoW - Frequently Asked Questions

Postby Yllanes » Tue May 27, 2014 12:19 pm

TheTonyDavis wrote:
Yllanes wrote:I think we really shouldn't introduce house rules. In any case, the best defense against that 'tactic' (other than the fact that I have never seen anyone use it) is that, since you can't predict how many hits you will make and your opponent can choose whether to 'activate' the Jumbo rule after the roll to hit, it is not really effective...


So we are going to HOPE that people don't use a rule that CAN break the Jumbo's Lead the Way rule?

I can assure you if it isn't outlawed I WILL be shooting the proper MG shots to bust the rule.

We really do need to fix this.


My point is that you don't know in advance how many hits you are going to make and your opponent can decide whether to use the Jumbo rule or not depending on the number of MG and main gun hits. Therefore, one pays the price of looking rather silly for a low probability of breaking the rule.

In any case, I certainly hope I won't encounter the kind of player that would use these tactics because that, whether we "fix" them or not, would in all probability mean a generally unpleasant game.

Do we really want a Worst play guide, like they have in WHFB?
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Re: ETC FoW - Frequently Asked Questions

Postby TheTonyDavis » Tue May 27, 2014 7:29 pm

Target platoon is a Jumbo, an M4 75mm Sherman and two Easy Eights. Two examples of many scenarios that Phil's 'fix' can't help:

The platoon takes one MG hit and two main gun hits. This breaks the Jumbos Lead the Way rule.

The platoon takes five main gun hits and two MG hits.

Phil has blown off the situation as a lack of interest dealing with people who are distorting the rules and says it is a non issue. It isn't a non issue and it needs dealt with simply.

What is the fix? You can not shoot any shots at a platoon with a Jumbo that can not cause any damage to subvert the Jumbos Lead the Way rule.

There is no risk of a slippery slope on this subject. This is the only rule issue that BF has stubbornly avoided to address through LFTF. We are in a better position that WFB or 40K b/c FOW is better managed.
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Re: ETC FoW - Frequently Asked Questions

Postby Rugi » Wed May 28, 2014 8:17 am

Yllanes wrote:
In any case, I certainly hope I won't encounter the kind of player that would use these tactics because that, whether we "fix" them or not, would in all probability mean a generally unpleasant game.

Do we really want a Worst play guide, like they have in WHFB?


No need to worry about that. The rules are very robust in general and even if they weren't it is still better that both players know of the "tricks" to avoid any arguments at the tournament.

@Tony:
In your first example the Sherman commanding player can choose to use the Jumbo lead the way rule for main guns, which means Jumbo takes the first hit (as per LFTF)
In your second example, Jumbo can take two main gun hits using the same rule as above, as per LFTF.
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Re: ETC FoW - Frequently Asked Questions

Postby Psychopath » Wed May 28, 2014 8:53 am

The rules are very robust in general

This! There is no need to change anything. This is the ETC and no tournament in your LGS, so avoid any house rules and go with the official ones.
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Re: ETC FoW - Frequently Asked Questions

Postby Rugi » Wed May 28, 2014 9:09 am

Last year we agreed that ambushing minefields and barbed wire is not allowed!
Still we are not making any house rules because we feel so but if there is a hole in the rules don't you think it is better that we fix it before the tournament?

What we could do as well is to send our questions to Battlefront and get an "official" reply.
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Re: ETC FoW - Frequently Asked Questions

Postby Yllanes » Wed May 28, 2014 12:11 pm

Rugi wrote:Still we are not making any house rules because we feel so but if there is a hole in the rules don't you think it is better that we fix it before the tournament?

You have suggested fixes also where there are no holes (multiple warrior saves, for example). We should stick to the rulebook + LFTF.
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Re: ETC FoW - Frequently Asked Questions

Postby Jonny65 » Wed May 28, 2014 12:59 pm

Yllanes wrote:We should stick to the rulebook + LFTF.

This makes sense to me.

Is anyone willing to gather up questions that are not covered by the above?
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Re: ETC FoW - Frequently Asked Questions

Postby Rugi » Wed May 28, 2014 1:37 pm

Yllanes wrote:
Rugi wrote:Still we are not making any house rules because we feel so but if there is a hole in the rules don't you think it is better that we fix it before the tournament?

You have suggested fixes also where there are no holes (multiple warrior saves, for example). We should stick to the rulebook + LFTF.


Ok, done. This year we therefore use ambushing minefields and barbed as well.

Johnny, we can scratch the question about Jumbos and warrior saves. Every other question is still valid because it's not (or we don't know if it is) covered by rules or LFTF.
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Re: ETC FoW - Frequently Asked Questions

Postby sovietpride » Wed May 28, 2014 2:00 pm

Ambushing Minefields have already been covered by the current LFTF.

Rules are solid, sportmanship is an integral part of the game (and the comunity) and we have referees, cannot see the need for house rules on the ETC.
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Re: ETC FoW - Frequently Asked Questions

Postby Jonny65 » Wed May 28, 2014 2:10 pm

Sometimes house rules are necessary. At the last event I attended I had a few points left over so I added a Sherman ARV with .50 cal. While familiarising myself with its rules, I noticed that there was no restriction on whose bogged, bailed or wrecked vehicles could be towed. While towing enemy wrecks is generally considered okay, opponents tend to get a bit annoyed if you start dragging their bogged and bailed tanks around the battlefield :wink: . I think Phil posted that you weren't supposed to do that, but last I looked it hadn't made the LFTF.
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Re: ETC FoW - Frequently Asked Questions

Postby Rugi » Wed May 28, 2014 3:35 pm

Yllanes wrote:You have suggested fixes also where there are no holes (multiple warrior saves, for example). We should stick to the rulebook + LFTF.


Also, this is a hole. This way one can kill more teams than he sees are have as viable targets and such process has not existed in FoW until this rule appeared in LFTF.

@Sovietpride: Thanks, guess I need to read the LFTF a lot more carefully again.

In any case, I guess this ain't going to be a game breaker or anything so lets first gather questions that need answering and the discussion if anything needs a house rule can follow later in case there is no other way.
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Re: ETC FoW - Frequently Asked Questions

Postby TheTonyDavis » Wed May 28, 2014 8:21 pm

Rugi wrote:
@Tony:
In your first example the Sherman commanding player can choose to use the Jumbo lead the way rule for main guns, which means Jumbo takes the first hit (as per LFTF)
In your second example, Jumbo can take two main gun hits using the same rule as above, as per LFTF.


All of those allocations violate either 'Allocating Mixed Ratings' in page 93 or 'Hit Weakest Armor First' on page 95.

Phil's LFTF 'fix' does specify that you can do that.

If, indeed, you can allocate hits in a chosen sequence where does that slope stop? Can I do it when someone shoots at a Cav recon platoon and put main gun hits first which have to go on the recon jeep and then allocate the MG hits next which will have to go on the M8?

Phil's 'fix' was a smart behind reply blowing off the issue as a non issue. It is indeed not a non issue and needs addressed.

Shooting MGs at a jumbo platoon is much more sporting than moving your opponents minis or forcing them to endure a third reroll of a morale test b/c time is running low and arguing about it for the next twenty minutes is in the defenders favor.

I may have not attended an ETC before but I have done my homework and want to be sure that certain loopholes are fixed before someone tries to pull it on me at this event.
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Re: ETC FoW - Frequently Asked Questions

Postby Rugi » Thu May 29, 2014 6:36 am

Tony:
In your first example the Sherman commanding player can opt to use "jumbo lead the way" rule for the main guns. Therefore, he takes the first main gun hit as if he has the lowest armor. The second main gun hit has to be taken by a different team to maximize the number of teams hit and the MG hit goes on another tank as well. No rules are being broken here.

In the second example only ONE tank would take two and the rest one main gun hit. The two MG hits cannot prevent one tank from receiving two main gun hits, no matter how you allocate them. In this specific case the mentioned allocation is the only viable one. All of the tanks therefore get a main gun hit before the tank with the lowest armor (jumbo) gets hit the second time. Two other tanks then get hit by a MG as well. Allocating mixed ratings and hit weakest armor first is satisfied.

If the targeted platoon was a tank platoon without a jumbo, the tank with the lowest armor and another tank would take one MG and one main gun hit and two other tanks one main gun hit and one.

Edited twice before any comments were made
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Re: ETC FoW - Frequently Asked Questions

Postby TheTonyDavis » Thu May 29, 2014 6:23 pm

Rugi wrote:Tony:
In your first example the Sherman commanding player can opt to use "jumbo lead the way" rule for the main guns. Therefore, he takes the first main gun hit as if he has the lowest armor. The second main gun hit has to be taken by a different team to maximize the number of teams hit and the MG hit goes on another tank as well. No rules are being broken here.

In the second example only ONE tank would take two and the rest one main gun hit. The two MG hits cannot prevent one tank from receiving two main gun hits, no matter how you allocate them. In this specific case the mentioned allocation is the only viable one. All of the tanks therefore get a main gun hit before the tank with the lowest armor (jumbo) gets hit the second time. Two other tanks then get hit by a MG as well. Allocating mixed ratings and hit weakest armor first is satisfied.

If the targeted platoon was a tank platoon without a jumbo, the tank with the lowest armor and another tank would take one MG and one main gun hit and two other tanks one main gun hit and one.

Edited twice before any comments were made


Both of those allocations break Mixed Anti Tank Ratings on page 95.

The lowest AT must be allocated to the lowest armor. This is how shooting MGs at Jumbos breaks their rule. If you start ignoring allocation rules where do we draw the line when we are going to follow the rules and when we aren't?
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Re: ETC FoW - Frequently Asked Questions

Postby Rugi » Thu May 29, 2014 9:03 pm

As per LFTF, one can use "jumbo lead the way" for main guns only. There are no other exceptions to this which means you cannot use this kind of allocation when applying hits to platoons without a jumbo.

Edit: And the hit allocation in such case does not break the hit allocation rules because for MG hits the jumbo is considered as the highest armor, and as lowest for main gun hits.
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Re: ETC FoW - Frequently Asked Questions

Postby TheTonyDavis » Thu May 29, 2014 10:13 pm

Rugi wrote:As per LFTF, one can use "jumbo lead the way" for main guns only. There are no other exceptions to this which means you cannot use this kind of allocation when applying hits to platoons without a jumbo.

Edit: And the hit allocation in such case does not break the hit allocation rules because for MG hits the jumbo is considered as the highest armor, and as lowest for main gun hits.


If that is the work around this tournament is using then fine.
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Re: ETC FoW - Frequently Asked Questions

Postby Krawat » Tue Jun 10, 2014 9:16 pm

Which version of More LFTF will be official one ? One present on 30.06 or later ?

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Re: ETC FoW - Frequently Asked Questions

Postby Yllanes » Tue Jun 10, 2014 9:35 pm

According to the vote, the one on June 30. I hope they publish an update before that, since there are many changes in the air (errata for the Italy books, Jumbos with TA 2 retroactively from BG&G, etc.).
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