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 Post subject: Back to the future (8th edition rumouring)
PostPosted: Tue Feb 16, 2010 7:03 am 
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And I got this from Warseer. Seems to be pretty much confirmed that the % slots for army choices are coming back...

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From BoLS:

From BoLS:

Quote Our scouts scour the land day and night without rest. Here's the latest chatter on the wind regarding Fantasy 8th Edition: (with commentary by your favorite Fantasy fanatic: Iamaddj)

1) Army construction is moving back to percentages. (you may have 25% of your points spent on heroes, 25%-50% on core… etc.)

This change seems ok at first. A nice way to make people put more points in core and to limit over the top spending on characters. However after review it doesn’t seem they will be able to make it work with the current army books. Sure limiting a 2250 empire army to not more then 400pts of rare choices means only 1 steam tank (hooray!) but it does allow for 4 Hellblasters. A decked out Slaan would now be your only character while the undead player could fit 8-10 Necromancers in his list. Overall this change would seem to favor spamming. -iamaddj

2) Expect many changes to the magic phase, including giving irresistable force a downside, while making miscasts harder to have but much more devastating.

Again at first these changes seem alright, and independently they aren’t anything I wouldn’t like to see. However when viewed with the game as a whole they are worrisome. The big powerful spells that have become a staple of the newer books effectively die with these changes. You still have a good chance to miscast, only now it will be REALLY bad, and even when you get irestible force, which these spells really need to go off most of the time, there will be some type of downside. These changes once again seem to favor spamming lots of little spells; flicker fire, invocation, etc. combined with the possibility of being able to take lots of cheap lvl 1 wizards it could turn the magic phase into a spam fest. -iamaddj

3) The return of "lapping-around" in combat.

This is a throw back to older editions that was removed in 7th. In 6th lapping around was complicated, often forgotten and a pain in the butt, but a lot of players liked it. We will have to see what they do with it. -iamaddj

4) Speeding up of combat in general. A possiblity of introducing a type of combat familiar to Flames of War players, something in which there are no multi-turn combats. Instead combat is fought over and over again until one side is dead or breaks, all in the same round of combat. For example a 6x5 block of Saurus Spearmen fight a 3x6 block of Swordmasters of Hoeth. The Elves attack and kill the front rank of the Lizardmen. The 6 back rank spearmen attack, get luckly and kill the front rank of the Swordmasters, now the next rank of the Elves attacks, and so forth until one side breaks or is wiped out.

While it is possible Fantasy could uses some speeding up, this sounds worrying. Can you imagine how powerful a combat lord, a Vampire for instance, will be if he gets to fight more then once in a single close combat phase? Will have to see how these rules work out. -iamaddj

5) In general the design changes are said to make the game play faster and at least partial nerf Daemons of Chaos after the huge community backlash against them.

I let "the guys who know" to coment


Avian wrote:
The #1 is the one I didn't want to tell people about. 25% max on characters is rather harsh on many lists.

AFAIK the #4 is wildly off.

Don't know about the rest.

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 Post subject: Re: Back to the future (8th edition rumouring)
PostPosted: Tue Feb 16, 2010 7:34 am 
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Interestingly the Belgian Organic Lemon Syndicate post is before Warseer. Normally they just crib their rumours from there.

To my mind some of those (especially 3 and 4) are flat out contradictory. 1 seems totally contrary to recent policies on simplifying stuff, and a retrograde step.

File under "B" for ..... now.

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 Post subject: Re: Back to the future (8th edition rumouring)
PostPosted: Tue Feb 16, 2010 7:57 am 
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Not played between 3rd and 7th...

If lapping is back I'm very happy

if they are bringing percentages back they have missed a very basic trick, don't put it in the rulebook, put it in the army books where it belongs, and the key point: there is no need for each army to be at the same percentages.

Overall sounds a couple of reasonably sensible changes, though personally I still want the old advanced formations back (square, archer wedge etc)

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 Post subject: Re: Back to the future (8th edition rumouring)
PostPosted: Tue Feb 16, 2010 8:06 am 
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leopard wrote:
if they are bringing percentages back they have missed a very basic trick, don't put it in the rulebook, put it in the army books where it belongs, and the key point: there is no need for each army to be at the same percentages.


Agreed.

GW could pull this of by using both the rulebook and army books. If the rule book said something like "Unless the army book tells you otherwise, use this table; etc."

That would cover alle 6th/7th edition books, while they could put percentages according to the army in all 8th edition army book releases.

Archer wedge? That thing Bretonnia had in 5th edition? I don't belive triangles works in a game of squares ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Back to the future (8th edition rumouring)
PostPosted: Tue Feb 16, 2010 8:15 am 
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Big pinch methinks ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Back to the future (8th edition rumouring)
PostPosted: Tue Feb 16, 2010 8:33 am 
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I will in never believe that GW would be that daft -
hopefully its just the rumour mongers.

The combat thing is what hits me the most - that just wouldn't work with the armies armound.

If GW is even considering this - some people needs to be robbed of paychecks and an empty ball sack!

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 Post subject: Re: Back to the future (8th edition rumouring)
PostPosted: Tue Feb 16, 2010 9:58 am 
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Funny enough though, Warmaster combat happens until one side wins so there is a precedent for it even at GW....

The character % thing would probably kill Tomb Kings for good jimho :?

I'm worried about changes to the magic phase, I had a brief worry they would up all the casting costs on the lore of shadows etc, however, that would leave the army specific lists much stronger (except beasts :mrgreen: )

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 Post subject: Re: Back to the future (8th edition rumouring)
PostPosted: Tue Feb 16, 2010 10:14 am 
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Just release an updated version of Warhammer Armies with current rulebook and I'd be very happy.

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 Post subject: Re: Back to the future (8th edition rumouring)
PostPosted: Tue Feb 16, 2010 10:26 am 
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I'll wait till i get the book in my hands, but its always nice to read a few rumours - true or not - to build up some excitement.

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 Post subject: Re: Back to the future (8th edition rumouring)
PostPosted: Tue Feb 16, 2010 10:30 am 
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I would be disappointed if any of these rumours were true.

#2 is especially terrible. The problem with magic at present, IMO, is the abundance of low level wizards spamming spells and high level wizards not being able to counter them as well as one might intuitively expect. If a DOC army is forced to take more core, then they will spam pink horrors and be even more unstoppable than they are now since the opponent is less likely to have a caddy/extra dice due to the restriction on hero points.

And who wants 8-10 necromancers if they can't afford a decent vampire lord? It's not a substitute. VC need their characters, HE need their special, etc. They would need to accomodate certain 'special' armies to make percentages work.

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 Post subject: Re: Back to the future (8th edition rumouring)
PostPosted: Tue Feb 16, 2010 10:53 am 
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I remember the days of % and they weren't good.

units of 30 night goblins, with the whole front rank as Heroes with great weapons.

up to 50% special ? ok, I'll have 10 great cannons at 2000pts.

It just gets silly.

I'm taking this with a huge pinch of salt.

7th is almost perfect as far as the main rules go. I'd have expected just a couple of tweaks really. I can't see any justification for massive changes. (Its the books that are a problem)


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 Post subject: Re: Back to the future (8th edition rumouring)
PostPosted: Tue Feb 16, 2010 10:54 am 
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If percentages come back I will quit this game. This is not a threat or bluff. I have no intention to ever play against armies such as 50% horrors or 50% xbows and dark riders.

I hope all of these rumors are wrong (undecided on lapping round).


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 Post subject: Re: Back to the future (8th edition rumouring)
PostPosted: Tue Feb 16, 2010 11:05 am 
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manicpsychotic wrote:
If percentages come back I will quit this game. This is not a threat or bluff. I have no intention to ever play against armies such as 50% horrors or 50% xbows and dark riders.

I hope all of these rumors are wrong (undecided on lapping round).


:lol:

Yet currently you can face 90%+ horrors or xbows/dark riders :lol:

The one I find especially funny is the "keep on fighting" suggestion. I can see dwarf slayers tear apart entire units in a single round. Or stubborn Ld10 with a reroll assassins doing it. Or... or not :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Back to the future (8th edition rumouring)
PostPosted: Tue Feb 16, 2010 11:11 am 
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But! Aren't %s coming back in combination with the current restriction? You would still have only 4 character slots in a 2250 pts game, but you can not spend more than 25 or 50% of your points on them. That would work, I guess.


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 Post subject: Re: Back to the future (8th edition rumouring)
PostPosted: Tue Feb 16, 2010 11:12 am 
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But currently most people take units aside from horrors which if not less broken is at least more varied. If its 400pts of characters/specials/rares that leaves 800pts worth of core. In a DoC army most players take core with heralds or horrors. So assuming you have two heralds that leaves an large number of points for horrors left.

2250pts (462.5pts assumed for char/specials/rares)

BT 450
85 horrors 1020
2x5 hounds 350
2x6 flamers 420
2240pts of lame


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 Post subject: Re: Back to the future (8th edition rumouring)
PostPosted: Tue Feb 16, 2010 11:20 am 
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How is that any diffrent from what people (can) take now?


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 Post subject: Re: Back to the future (8th edition rumouring)
PostPosted: Tue Feb 16, 2010 11:22 am 
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25% on characters huh, well I guess no one is ever having a dragon in 2k points again, most of the good WoC characters wont be used, greater daemons will have to be naked most of the time, ogres get another punch in the face as their Tyrant is a good amount of points on his own. As said TK get spit on.

My HEs will have to use the 5 units of core that I dont actually own, and my specials will be thrown away or sold because I'll never be able to use them, my rares will consist of only eagles. Luckily my newly formed wood elves will be great, seeing as its a mostly core army anyway.

And Undead having to pour that much of their points into Core? I do not want to be on customer complaint helplines at GW the day this rule goes live, if ever.

EDIT: to the post above mine: It isnt different, but if you enforce a % then every army will be like that, even if they dont want to be.

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 Post subject: Re: Back to the future (8th edition rumouring)
PostPosted: Tue Feb 16, 2010 11:27 am 
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Bram wrote:
But! Aren't %s coming back in combination with the current restriction? You would still have only 4 character slots in a 2250 pts game, but you can not spend more than 25 or 50% of your points on them. That would work, I guess.


That was my thought as well! Haven't thought it through yet but my initial throught is that it could work! Will be very interesting to see if rares will be 25% or maybe lower....

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 Post subject: Re: Back to the future (8th edition rumouring)
PostPosted: Tue Feb 16, 2010 11:29 am 
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This smells a bit fishy to me. Percentages were replaced by the current system, so now we are going back to the system that was rubbish 10 years ago?

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 Post subject: Re: Back to the future (8th edition rumouring)
PostPosted: Tue Feb 16, 2010 12:27 pm 
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I don't see why anyone would ever think that the return of %s would mean that the rules in the all of the army books would go away. Unless GW publish a massive errata - which they simply won't - then the army selection criteria will still apply, and so we'll have to follow it. I've considered many of the armies in my head and yes, Vampire Lords are hit, Greater Daemons are hit, Dragons are hit, right down to the "little" guys like Tyrants. I will welcome a rule like this indeed. Just imagine, a 2K Daemon army being lead by a Bloodthirster with 50 points of gifts, and no other characters... or a Lizardmen army with a Slann but unable to afford an Engine of the Gods (they'd actually become as rare as their background- fancy that!!)... or a Dark Elf army without a Black Dragon... yup, roll on 8th edition!!

WarpPhoenix wrote:
And Undead having to pour that much of their points into Core? I do not want to be on customer complaint helplines at GW the day this rule goes live, if ever.


Any undead player who would be aggrieved to spend 500 points on his core choices in a 2K army deserves to be smacked upside the head by an update in the rules :)


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 Post subject: Re: Back to the future (8th edition rumouring)
PostPosted: Tue Feb 16, 2010 12:40 pm 
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I just really hope a lot of these rumors are off by a long shot, and that there isnt a big diverse change in the system, with rumored movement and magic changes I can nearly do a hollywood feint!

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 Post subject: Re: Back to the future (8th edition rumouring)
PostPosted: Tue Feb 16, 2010 12:42 pm 
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Aggggggh! The sky is falling! Warhammer as we know it is over! I'm quitting to play tic-tac-toe!

Well someone had to say it.

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 Post subject: Re: Back to the future (8th edition rumouring)
PostPosted: Tue Feb 16, 2010 1:03 pm 
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I heard from various threads on different forums about all infantry getting to fight in 2 ranks in 8th.

This would mean regular spearmen get to fight in 3, HE spearmen 4, etc.

That would certainly give infantry a boost. But I don't know effective it would be, since it would make active combat resolution much more important, making elite infantry even better whilst not doing so much for cheap, regular infanty (empire state troops, dwarf warriors, goblins).

And if that change did go through my Bretonnian knights would definitely be sharing uneasy looks with eachother (before questing off to Hoeth to join the Sword Masters corp)

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 Post subject: Re: Back to the future (8th edition rumouring)
PostPosted: Tue Feb 16, 2010 1:35 pm 
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Inf fighting in two ranks + black guard/swordmasters/whitelions/ASF executioners/shades with GWs/GW grave guard with regen = epic rules fail.

Its great that every rumor I have heard so far results int he game falling to pieces. Time to rock quietly in the corner. Well until the rules are confirmed that is.


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 Post subject: Re: Back to the future (8th edition rumouring)
PostPosted: Tue Feb 16, 2010 1:38 pm 
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manicpsychotic wrote:
If percentages come back I will quit this game.

I call dibs on his armies! :D

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 Post subject: Re: Back to the future (8th edition rumouring)
PostPosted: Tue Feb 16, 2010 1:40 pm 
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I always come back to this on 8th Edition:

1. Who do they currently have in-house that actually understands the game well enough to write it?

2. Are they using outside playtesters? Anything other than "yes" is bad.

3. What mechanism have they put in place to ensure timely and quick updates of the Army Books so some aren't "written" to 8th edition while others are written to earlier editions?

Tuatha

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 Post subject: Re: Back to the future (8th edition rumouring)
PostPosted: Tue Feb 16, 2010 2:32 pm 
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Maybe there will be a Ravening Hordes style addendum sheet, to tide us over, if these rumours really are as significant to gameplay as some seem to think. Not with completely new army lists, but just making any changes that are necessary to tie in old books with the new mechanics. Just a thought, pure speculation on my part, not a rumour.

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 Post subject: Re: Back to the future (8th edition rumouring)
PostPosted: Tue Feb 16, 2010 2:38 pm 
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Shooting will have no minuses like in 40k. RUMOR CONFIRMED. by me

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 Post subject: Re: Back to the future (8th edition rumouring)
PostPosted: Tue Feb 16, 2010 3:07 pm 
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Quote:
1) Army construction is moving back to percentages. (you may have 25% of your points spent on heroes, 25%-50% on core… etc.)

What?.. :shock:
My lizardmen armylists always have at least 40% in characters (if playing under 2000 pts) and usually ~55% (if playing with Lord choice.
So LM should drastically change their playstyle or stop playing in 8ed. at all... #-o

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 Post subject: Re: Back to the future (8th edition rumouring)
PostPosted: Tue Feb 16, 2010 3:08 pm 
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I really wouldn't stress, most of these rules can be safely ignored if TO for tourniments choose to.
Mind having looked at how appaling the beastmen book is written, :shock: who knows.

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