Personally, an army with the image of ogres should slot in pretty high. Not abusively high (a la DE or DoC), but a solid high tier army. They deserve some love after the years in the waste bin.

People should FEAR ogres (ar ar)...but then I guess everyone feels that way about their army.

No army "should" be any more or less powerful than any other army purely due to the name on the front of the book.

Ah, that is no fun. We can speculate and wish-list. The ogres have been in obscurity for a while. Don't begrudge the faithful a little enthusiasm.

My first and favorite army is Ogres, don't think I don't feel your pain.

I really just want the game to be balanced, though.

Too late! So give me an army capable of hitting the big boys back, but which I can easily detune to face "mere mortals". The best of both worlds.

I feel confident that they'll fall between DoC and Beastmen.

Except no one in a tournament environment will do this, thus perpetuating the image that GW is cultivating of their utter inability to write balanced or even really fun material.

I know its too late to hope for balance, I'm afraid I will simply have to pray we end up with a book that at least bucks the current trend and spawns a FAQ that's slimmer than the book itself.

I knew you would say that, but it is the reality we live in. To be widely competitive, it is going to have to be a bad mamajama book, for better or worse. Or just line up with the rest of the rubes to get slapped when they play the elite.

We can only control ourselves. I play very reasonable VC lists all the time, but at least I have the option to go gonzo if I feel the situation warrants it.

They should slot in between Chaos Dwarfs and Dogs of War.
Time of Madness

This is one of the dumbest things I've ever heard. I was one Insane Courage check away from being 5-0 with Beasts of Chaos at last year's Colonial going into Game 6, and I played DL, VC Zombie Dragon, and 2x Slaan Lizardmen, before getting a Bottom 6 Draw vs. more LM, and losing Game 6 to DL. That's a rough draw, with a dated book, but as I said, one insane courage check from being 5-0.

How about TKs and WEs? They're old, and still plenty viable even vs. the big boys. Saying that a book has be to equally OTT to compete with the other seriously OTT books out there is nonsense.

Maybe fine tune your lists a little more? Or just play better next time? Because unless your opponent is bringing something like Tzeentch Circus or Slaaneshi Masque LD bomb, where your army is powerless to counteract it, most tournament armies can beat most other tournament armies on any given day.

- Larry

Invoke hyperbole much? And you are claiming that such a result with Beasts is typical?

Not all of us are demi-gods. Some of us need a reasonable list to compete with like reasonable lists. So pat yourself on the back for a good job and cut me some slack.

And obviously this thread is devoid of any seriousness or objective content; just blowing off some OK steam. It is solely a chance for OK lovers to dance around the fire and wave their hands in the air.

QFT.

I think it could be cool if they really where made to counter the top 3.

All ogres get +1 Strength, Toughness, wounds and attacks as long as there is a dark elf, undead or daemon model on the table.
If there is a Slaan and two engines they get the same benefit.
If your enemy has triple special or double rare, they get +1 Strength and +1 Toughness.

Hah! My ogres are S & T6 against your stupid flesh hound spam! Take that!

Although that would probably be a bit odd.

Heh I won't start on what I've done with my beasts shall I?

Bit of a boost all round, they need it.

Points reductions and a better magic item selection should do the trick.

Hope they don't go down the route of "new overpowered rare monster with no model planned anytime this decade" again... getting a bit sick of the new half-assed approach to making sure unit entries have models that started with the WoC book onwards.

... like they do now?

SteppingOnYou over at Warseer who claims to have read and play tested a near-final revision of the new book says that it is good, but that it falls short of Big 3 good. I like that. That means that I'll be able to play against most armies without being called cheese and will have a pretty good shot at anyone fielding the big three who isn't better than average.

...which is all I said was desired from my perspective. Can fight with the big boys, but is generally a decent (ie fair) army.

Why would you want them to be good? they're a terrible premise but so long as they're pants, hilarious.

Yeah... how dare those Ogres get uppity and actually have a homeland or come from someplace. They should just exist as a random add on that nobody puts in their army and love it.

Terrible Premise? Really?

An army of ogres? Yeah.

The fluff is terrible too though, now that you mention it.

I think how we look at the tiers of lists could be completely different after 8th ed. They are changing the core rules for things, so very easily something that is awesome could take a mega hit with the nerf stick.

It's why for now I hope all future lists are aimed exactly at the middle of the power rankings.

Oh please. So there are these Ogres, that have been part of various Warhammer armies for YEARS, and there's an uproar that not only do the creatures have a homeland, but that there are a lot of them?

And that after years, a society of them has started to evolve, where instead of disparate tribes, they are becoming united under one leader, who organizes Tyrants to do his bidding?

And they may even have a religion, with priests who can harness their own magic?

Please. Just because it wasn't thought up 25 years ago when O&G's with their WAAAGH, and the Empire of Sigmar were defined in the fluff doesn't make it any less valid of a concept for a fantasy game world...

It amuses me when people complain about Ogre fluff. As if no other army has ever had their fluff retconned.

Awesome opinions, did you want to offer up some reasoning behind the empty opinions or just pontificate?

Ooh, Zing
IMO, the Ogre fluff is reasnoable. Not exceptional, but decent enough in parts. I can't understand why some have a problem with GW adding in new bits of fluff that might contradict old stuff- if they didn't do that, then every new race would go along the lines of "So there are these fishmen, who live on an island in the middle of the sea. But they don't do much, and have virtually no relations with any of the other races. Apart from when we have a battle, when they are magically transported to the Old World by the mystical forces of the Fishmobile."
Fluff would suck. WHFB isn't like 40K, it isn't big enough to just say "this giant area here is populated by green people with gills," you have to develop on what you already have in order to progress and keep it fresh.

An army of ogres is silly enough, an army of giant Mongol sumo-babies that worship a big mouth is just too silly. The fluff is laughably silly, which doesn't suit an army that works well.

The fluff is fine as it is. There are armies with unimpressive fluffs like Orcs & Gobs and The Empire.
Ogre Kingdoms fluff is at its beginnings while those other 2 armies have had a good 2 decades to improve and I must say it has devolved instead of evolving.

There's place for improvement but many, like me, already like it. Its not all awesome like certain armies or other stories (I'm very fond of Warhammer 40K fluff) but its definitely not weak.

You still haven't said why an army of Ogres is silly.

Is it the thought of a horde of cannibalistic man-eaters who might even eat you while you are still alive that gives you the giggles? Maybe the thought of a huge obese shaman who gains power from gobbling down pieces of former victims he plucks from his walking larder. Maybe the fact that he can pull your worst nightmare from the primal part of your brain and thrust it up into your conscious level. Even better he can cause every bone in your body to shatter, leaving you helpless and in agony whilst he drags you off to become part of that walking larder.

Basically I think you believe Ogres are silly because you wanted to believe that and haven't thought about it enough to form any other opinion. From your comments I can barely glean the slightest argument backing your reasons for disliking them. I take it you don't like the models or the background written into the OK army book.

Things I believe Ogres have going for them.

• Easily convertible plastic model kits with lots of extra bits.
• Low model count to get started in the hobby
• Large models that are easy to paint
• Interesting and different magic system
• Characterful Lords and Heroes. Gorv Doublestep(aka Longstrider Big Name)
• "Grey" army, neither White Hats or Black Hats so they can show up anywhere supporting anyone
• Maneaters, mercenaries who pick up habits from their adopted culture adding even more variety to the look of your army.

I also happen to like the fluff. Ogres run the gambit from caravan guards, guards in Cathian temples/castles, ravening marauders, cool and collected mercenaries, starving monsters, extra muscle. There is plenty of room for imagination in creating your tribe where as there are only so many 33rd Dragoons of Altdorf, and wayward Bretonnian 2nd sons on a quest.

Orcs are Iconic to Warhammer, but if you look back the Ogres are there over and over again in many different army options.

first and foremost I love Ogre Kngdoms as an army, think the range is fantastic and the army background is very well done, only problem with ogres is the competativness, they simply suck hands down in todays environment rampant with dragons and steam tanks, even when the book was released they were subpar in many aspects, you pay 35 points for a bad chaos warrior with 3 wounds and no armour. I always believed that a "good" ogre army, and i use the term loosely, relied heavily on characters, the best of which was butchers. Not being able to take a slaughtermaster in standard tournaments was a big load of poop. for the new book id like to see the following:

1) Slaughtermasters in a 2k game setting
2) Armour options for Ogres- not on par with chaos warriors but something ar least besides light armour
3) New gnoblar models please
4) Something to tackle the current gaming environment i.e. Dragons, Steam Tanks

if teh army got the above they would slot in nicely with the environment without being overtly nasty and hard as nails just well rounded

According to the rumor mongers over at warseer, you'll be getting all of your wishes, except for new gnoblar models... kind of. There is a rumor about new gnoblar units/characters but all of the current plastics are expected to stay the same. As for tackling big nasties, it looks like you'll have rhinoxen (in a variety of styles) and a new type of large monster.

Actually, I remember the Ogre background material from the 1980's being pretty much similar to the current stuff, what with them being grey-skinned subhumans who eat a lot and worship the Great Maw.
The basics of the Ogres' background was established back in the days when half the Greenskin race was still Hobgoblin Orange and Orc Brown, and Lizardmen hated Slann.