Fast cavalry can shoot in all directions. Models block line of sight, today in a game i placed my unit directly in the flank arc of a unit of outriders. My opponent claimed they could all see as they have 360 line of sight.
I assumed that if my unit is directly in the flank then only one model could see.

depends on the size of your unit. (ooo-er!)

If it was smaller than 50mm, then only one Outrider could shoot. If it was wider than 50, then the other Outriders can draw a very thin slice of LoS, which is all that they need to do in order to shoot. A 50mm model would have to be perfectly placed to avoid getting lit up by the whole unit.

I disagree, LoS is taken from the unit as far as I know (I'm open to correction - don't have BRB in front of me), so if one guy can see you they can all shoot.

I reckon your opponent was spot on tbh

they have 360 line of sight but i dont see why that lets then shoot through each other. A unit of archers only has 90 line of sight but only one rank can fire in that direction. If the unit was 1 wide and 5 deep you wouldnt let all of them shoot.

Nope. That's the danger of quoting rules without looking at the book. Shooting los is measured model by model.

Hm. I have totally seen it played both ways. My guess is that the total 360 version of the fast cav rules is more convention than actual rules. In actuality, you would need to be very slightly not-perpendicular to the target for every single model in the unit to have a LOS.

But it would require some very intentional and precise placement on the flank to deny that LOS, I would think.

It doesn't. Only skirmishers can ignore their own unit-members (ooo-er two!) for shooting purposes.

What a lot of folks don't realize, however, is just how thin a sliver is needed for Fast Cav to get shots off. I've had the discussion with some fairly experienced players who still didn't grasp the concept. Sadly, the diagrams that someone put together on W-E are no longer available, or I'd link them.

Sounds like a job for the bad dice boys!

Read queeks posts. I've had to argue the sliver LOS thing FAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAR too many times for something that is so obvious that anyone who has ever dealt with any sort of coordinate system (which is introduced in what, fourth grade) should realize it immediately.

Basic geometry is harder for some people than others, unfortunately.

Yup, just had a look through it there - it's fairly conclusive. In the fast cav section on LoS it even says that the 360 thing doesn't mean they can see through friendly models.

Yup. They can shoot, but only if each one can see (and it's hard for them not to be able to).

I think this really only becomes an issue if you're shooting at something small like a lone character on the flank, or if the fast cav unit has 2 ranks, then probably only one guy from the back rank will be able to shoot.

Yeah take those 2 crappy red measuring sticks that used to come with 5th edition WHFB, stick one against the front of the cav unit and one against the back, if the model they want to shoot at in their flank isn't completely between the two sticks, then the entire unit has LOS.

The only time I've "used" this rule against fast cav, have been placing a jaguar saurus in the deadzone of some outriders. It is a very small disadvantage for the few units of fast cav which would like to remain in place, and as others have said before me, the rules are VERY clear.

I actually was wondering about this the other day, but it doesnt seem terribly important since the easy remedy is to just slant your guys back a fraction

Unless you're outriders... then you're screwed.

I use the sideways shooting tactic quite often, as it lets me shoot something and make sure I cover another point of the battlefield for charging later, etc, etc. Some times I still have to explain to people that I still can shoot unless theyre in my blind spot.

What I struggle with is that if fast cav can use this 'sliver of los' why cant a model standing behind another model use the 12' or so that is his sliver of los to shoot out the forward off centre 12'?

Fast cav have 360, ranked units don't. Also, the models in front(or to the side in the case of a flanked fast cav unit) block LoS in the exact same way. Isn't an issue, basically.

What he said

I know the differences. I know that the cav model next to the other one blocks los through his model. Im saying the same principle shold apply to a model standing behind another one.

If the cav model can draw a sideways los along the front of the base to his side, why cant the rear non cav model draw a similar but forwards los along the side of the base to his front?

Here's a quick mspaint of the 360 arc for fast cavalry

The only way for a unit NOT to be a valid target is to be smaller than a cavalry base and exactly lined up with the angle of the unit, "hiding" behind the end model (who could still shoot alone, of course)


And here's the infantry version

Models in the back can't see out the side because their corners are blocked. Corner-to-corner only works for hand to hand!

queek, if you mean the red and green diagrams on outriders, that was me

You can be cavalry based size. However you need to be aligned exactly. Quite literally exactly.

Due to this, generally it's acceptable where I game to have something called a gentlemens agreement.

Basically, they put their unit as close as the can fathom to being in this sweet spot of nonshooty death, inform me of what they're trying to do, and I agree, and don't shoot them.

Because he'd need to be able to see from his side to do that Since his base is the same width as the model in front of him, his LOS is 100% blocked. If Fast cav could ONLY see from the side of their base and not from the front and back, then your argument would be logical, but since what is actually happening is there is a sightline being drawn at a very low angle from their front base (grazing the front of the models next to them) allowing them to see anything that is even the slightest bit ahead (or behind, since it works with their rear base as well) of their unit in the flank.

ROFL @ Trent.

nice diagrams, and better commentary!


MrDwhitey, if so, get them rehosted and back up, please? Its one more place to link to the next eleventy times this issue comes up!

I would but I can't find them anymore.

back to Photoshop with thee!

It's 2 am in the morning and I need sleep.

This is all you're getting!



Basically, the green area is Line of Sight for the entire unit, and the red area is line of sight for one model only. I've saved it as a PNG so it can be downloaded, zoomed in on (though I hope no-one actually does that) to show that by one single pixel, B is going to get lots of Dakka. A is kind of self explanatory.

C however, is safe if it is perfectly aligned (or you do the gentlemans agreement like I do), as a cavalry base is the same size as a cavalry base, thus one -can- block LOS to another.

Trent, thanks for the diagrams. I do think they are slightly misleading though. I think Lithan put it best when he hinted that a middle shooter is not drawing a los from his corner but rather slightly back and slightly at an angle that would put his los just off the line directly parallel to the front of the bases next to him.

Otherwise one can still argue that a los could be drawn from the guy in the back side of a regular unit, as I see it.