We've been having a debate the last couple of days about whether you can overrun when the unit is wiped out due to crumbling instead of combat. Actually, it's just one guy who's arguing that a unit can't overrun if the unit they're fighting crumbles. Apparently someone over on one of the VC boards pointed this out to him. He states that Overrun can only occur if the unit is wiped out after the first round of combat and crumbling happens afterwords. However, we've pointed out that Overrun is a special type of Pursuit (it says so right in print) and pursuit/reform is the last thing that happens. This would also mean units like Skaven slaves blowing up, Daemon units dissolving due to instability tests, etc also couldn't be overrun. This was his argument:

Close Combat is structured this way:
1. Fight a round of close combat (overrun if enemy is "wiped" out)
2. Calculate close combat results
3. Loser takes a break test (or crumbles)
4. Flee and pursue

Now the Overrun! rule states:
"If a unit charges into combat, and by the end of that round of close combat,
all its enemies have been wiped out as result of the combat (rather than the
pursuit) the unit can choose to make a pursuit move, even with no one left alive
to pursue. This is an overrun move... "

Before its argued that a 'round of close combat' is a loose term that can mean
the whole combat phase, please notice how GW goes through great lengths to make
the term clear:

From p48:
"1 FIGHT A ROUND OF CLOSE COMBAT"

From p52 in bold:
"2 CALCULATE CLOSE COMBAT RESULTS"
Once all models engaged in the combat have fought, this concludes that we call
'combat round' or 'round of close combat' "

Clearly the enemy MUST have been wiped out as result of a round of close combat
in order to make an overrun move!

By the end of a round of close combat, you don't even know the winner yet unless
there was a wipeout so you CANNOT wound unstable units with Combat Resolution at
this point!

Regarding the FAQ: That only covers that yes you can overrun if you somehow
destroy your enemy before the round of close combat. (Crumbling happens after)

You can overrun. Your friend is wrong, s is whoever it was on the VC board that told him it.


Cheers,

Neil

Actually, his friend is correct, all the rules are in favour of his interpretation and nothing at all supports that Unstable units which crumbled away due to combat resolution would grant a "Wipeout!" result.

It's just that most players around the world don't necessarily play the game as it's written. Conventions are given birth through years of common misinterpretation and sometimes these conventions are impossible to shake off. Look at Neil's response, for example. Even though he saw the complete rules argument, he flat out refused to accept it nor did he even attempt to search for evidence which would refute this argument. I did, but found none.

Isn't the criteria for overrun that you no longer have opponents at the flee/pursue stage? Don't have my book with me, so pardon if I'm totally wrong.

RAW = you can't overrun.
RAI = you can overrun.

This is probably an oversight because the intention of the rules can be deciphered from this sentence on page 58 in OVERRUN! "If a unit charges into combat and, by the end of that round of close combat, all its enemies have been wiped out as a result of the combat (rather than the pursuit) the unit can choose to make a pursuit move, even with nobody left alive to pursue." Even though they mention a round of combat.

The talk of 'a round of combat' is not vague per se but it shouldn't (imo) be interpreted so strictly.

Since 'the most important rule' in fantasy is only officially eligable for special rules and magic items and the rulebook doesn't even mention it, only the FAQ, then I'd say RAW wins this 'combat round'

Here's the extra rub though. While it says an overrun can occur only after a "Wipeout" which under the description of overrun would seem to indicate that "Wipeout" only means removing all models in the first "round" of combat, the description of "Wipeout" on page 53 isn't nearly as specific. On page 53 under Wipeout it says:

"Of course, if one side has been completely wiped out in the fight, the other side is automatically the winner. In such cases the unit automatically restrains pursuit and reforms (as discussed on page 57). Alternatively, if the unit charged this turn it can choose to overrun (see page 58).

Here it seems to indicate that a "Wipeout" simply means removing all the models in the fight. Certainly crumbling is part of the fight even if it technically occurs after the "round" of combat. I see where it can be argued both ways, but I really believe that the Overrun was intended to grant an opponent the option of getting an extra move if they've wiped out their opponent on the charge, regardless of whether or not some of the models crumbled. After all, would a unit commander really restrain his troops from going on to find another enemy to fight just because some of the skeletons his unit was fighting fell on their own versus their weapons?

When do you remove the crumble wounds ?

Well, you do the combat, then you calculate the combat results. This is where the fighting ends, and now you take a breaktest if you lost the combat. So nothing has been wiped out yet, not even the undead creatures.

At the stage of the breaktest, you remove the extra wounds suffered from the combat.

To get a whipeout ressult you have to get to the breaktest part of the combat, with no opponents left, you can't do that if you have to remove crumble wounds ^^

@tvandyke, its pointless to argue common sense, I think most can agree that overrun should be allowed even against undead or daemons and I'm fairly certain most will play it that way regardless of RAW.

@Texhnology, I'm not sure I understand you. But to answer your question, you remove crumble wounds after CR has been calculated. But when you calculate CR then 'a round of combat' has finished according to the rules and if you read the line I quoted then it should be obvious that you don't get overrun unless there is no enemy left after 'a round of combat' has finished. But to iterate my RAI point, there is evidence that this is an oversight, which would not be the first in the BRB.

Okay, to the people who're arguing that the winners haven't wiped out the enemy, and therefore don't get to over-run/re-form as they choose, what are you saying it should be? Are you saying that they must test to restrain persuing the unit that is no-longer there?

Overrun does not happen, pursue does not happen, therefore there is no need to take a test to restrain it.

When discussing this, is probably worth being aware that in previous editions, it was clearly spelled out in the rules that yes, you could overrun after a unit was wiped out by crumbling. Whether or not you think that's relevant to how the rules should be played, I'm pretty sure it's relevant to how they generally are played, and to how most players feel about this.

I think SquirrelMaster just answered my confusion on this thread, which was two-fold: 1) How come none of the 50 or so people I've played against with my Tomb Kings, including in tournaments, ever thought they could overrun after crumble? And 2) Why did Halldorben think it was an oversight that RAW says you can't overrun?

Seems like this is another "carryover from a previous edition" situation, where the newcomers don't understand why it would ever be different from what the rules say, and the old hats are feeling like the new rules don't make sense, or at least represent an incomprehensible change.

Among my gaming group, it's never been disputed that the combat result and whether it's a wipeout or not are decided at the same time, before crumble happens, so once crumble has occured, it's not a wipeout after the fact and therefore no overrun. I don't even think we allow a reform, since I don't recall a rules provision for that. Those points would probably seem less fair to someone playing against Daemons or VC, as opposed to someone playing against Tomb Kings.

For anyone looking for a way for it to make sense in fantasy land, the attackers might be bought up short by the sight of the few remaining enemies falling to pieces or warping out so much that they just don't have the presence of mind to keep charging forward.

Yeah, old habits die hard. In the tournaments where I've gone to with my VC during 8th edition, people have indeed made overruns from my crumbles. But it's not really surprising since we only weeded out last of the "sliders" last year...

So, does anyone actually play this one Rules As Written?

Check what Goober9 wrote, Justin...

I know I'll be playing it like this, though. It's very clearly written in the rules of this edition, so I assume it's an intended change. If they later say otherwise in the FAQ, I'm fine with that too. Meanwhile, yeah, I'm going to treat a round of close combat ending at the start of CR stage, as is written.

The reason why more of us old timers didn't notice this rule was probably due to the fact that it's written in bold. Very similar to the case of all war machines being missile weapons.

I did, and the reason I asked is because it looks like pretty much no one is going to play it this way. I do applaud you for your consistency though, even if you are in the minority.

RE: Goober below, whoops, my mistake!

I think I'm confused. Justin, Nibbles was trying to point out that I've never seen anyone play it any way other than RAW. So, in answer to your question as to whether anyone is going to play it this way: Heck yes!

Maybe that's just us over here in America, but it's more than nobody.

Boy is my face red

I was actually constructing a devastatingly scathing and accurate counter argument, about why a round of combat includes calculating combat resolution, when I saw the first paragraph on page 52, which rather spoilt things a little.

Does this also mean then, that of you destroy a crumbley unit through combat resolution, that not only are you not allowed to overrun, you are not allowed to reform either? Surely the same logic applies?


Cheers,

Neil

I would say that the rules are slightyl ambiguous...i see the argument for not being able to overrun now i would like to pose an alternative.

The reason for being able to overrun stems from "Wipeout" being the last para of "2. Calculate Close combat result", and states that "Of course if one side is wiped out in the fight, the other side is automatically the winner. In such cases the unit automatically restrains pursuit and reforms (pg 57). Alternatively if it charged this turn it can choose to overun (pg 58).

There is no mention at this point of "round of combat"

Pg58 part 1 of the rules

Para 1 - if you charged and also wiped out the enemy then you go 2d6 straight forwards

Restraining units - you can reform if you wiped out the enemy. Well the only rule for wiping out the enemy is back on page 53 and just mentions "the fight" you only get stuff about "round of combat" from an unrelated bit of rules about overun.

So now you have two contradicting rules in the same paragraph of the rules case Wipeout is at the end of "the fight" the other is at the end of the "round of combat".

So the rule for Wipeout is at the end of "the fight".

But if we have wiped out (at the end of the fight) we see that we can overrun and check but this says that we have to have wiped out at the "end of a round of combat" but wiped out is after combat resolution, but if we have wiped ou (at the end of the fight) we see that we can...

So i think there was a similar book called catch 22, from which i just remember that somehow buying eggs for 2c and selling them for 1c made a crazy profit...

So again we seem to have two ways of interpreting the same rule, but then feeding back through the rules to interpret them means you have to go around again... looks like we could be stuck on the combat phase if anyone ever wipes out an unstable unit by the end of the fight...i think i see a crack in reality crap warhammer just broke.


p.s. the above is part cheek part serious. I love fun Warhammer forum discussions.

Oh and neil posted inbetween me starting my post and finishing it.

Neil no it does not because reforming happens if you wiped out your enemy.

Wiping out your enemy is at the end of the fight.

Over run is at the end of the round of close combat

But wiping out is at the end of the calculate combat results.

but oh crap i am in a loop again.

Edit. Think i just found where the fight finishes...its on Turn 6 once victory conditions are decided. Phew. Based on Pg 140 "Fighting a warhammer battle"

Fingers crossed i never wipeout an enemy unit ever again as i cannot reform till the fight is over.

ChrisT, you're making this unnecessarily complicated.

The rules aren't as ambiguous as you think:


So the text is actually consistent at this point, referring to the fight that's been fought(models aren't fighting anymore at the CR calculating stage). Later, on page 58, the overrun rule then states that the charger's overrun move can be made if the enemies have been wiped out by the end of that round of close combat.

Only now there comes the part which is a bit ambiguous; though overruns are indeed not allowed if the enemy was not wiped out in the round of close combat, reforms do not seem to require this. All which the reforming after combat requires is that the unit decides not to pursue or overrun, and units can automatically reform if their enemies have been wiped out. Here we can ponder whether a unit that's been wiped out due to crumbling from unstable/instable counts as wiped out for purposes of getting to reform automatically. Or does it actually need to be a "wipeout!" result from a round of close combat.

Here the intent of the writer can be either, but I'd bet my money on reforms being allowed. Overruns are definitely not, though.

That has got to be the best comment ever in a rules discussion - love it!

If you want to be completely literal then Daemons should take two breaktests, one that is normal and test to see if they flee and a special kind for instability. The owning player can decide which goes first.

Also another very literal interpretation is something that Grotsnot brought up the other day. If you declare a charge on a unit that is facing directly towards your unit and the unit flees then you can't possibly reach its front by following the charge rules, making it a failed charge.

I know of these two cases very well and have had fun talking about them in my country's forum...

But this matter with combat rounds and overrunning isn't the same, because we have clear text defining the term "combat round" or "a round of close combat" and then another piece of clear text telling that overruns can't be done unless the enemy unit was wiped out during the combat round.

The demon thing & charge against fleeing units is more about some missing words which would explain the sloppy logic-holes which seemingly appear in the text. Following these two cases as is written, leads to very illogical situation. But not so with overruns vs. crumble.

Now, I understand why many people are against the text of 8th edition's rulebook in this matter, it's because things used to be different in earlier editions where it was told that overruns do occur from crumbling. But great many things used to be different in earlier editions. Now stop being such a slider and get over the changes already.

=> We have a winner!


=> True! As a TK player, I would _love_ to know that I can prevent overruns. It might actually give me some reason for hope that the army can do something good with the crap rules it has (or, in other words, that their is a positive to be gained from crumble as a counter to the overwhelming negative of not getting to take advantage of steadfast).


=> I'm going to start doing it, and I'm using tvandyke's initial post as all the evidence I need to support it. It's actually pretty darn clear if you read and follow the rules.

I do understand TK players jumping at this and they deserve it. But VC and daemon armies just don't need this &"#$#%!

But seriously, I think you are reading too much into this 'combat round'. It is only mentioned in the abstract text and it follows "what we call", which is short for "not really important".

Failing any contradictory text, it's more important than anything else we've got to go on.

The name of this post should be changed to "You will never charge VC units". Small unit of Zombies raised in the front means all real combats are initiated by the VC player.

There can only be one unit of raised zombies per turn, and that is if some wizard has managed to roll that particular spell and there's nothing better to cast.

I'm thinking more about those one base Spirit Host swarms, which now will be quite nice speedbumps. Previously I used 2x2 in my army, but now might go for the 3x1 after all...

On behalf of the Daemon brotherhood, I would like to extend a warm thankyou to our kindly and misunderstood Vampire and Tomb King comrades. I appreciate your valiant struggle and I will personally ensure that people stop taking advantage of our debilitating weaknesses... I join your rebellion against the oppressors!