Warmachine and 40k....

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dragonelf
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Warmachine and 40k....

Postby dragonelf » Thu May 14, 2015 4:05 pm

From being a warhammer and 40k player for some time, some of my friends have branched into warmachine claiming it is a more tactical game.

I still play 40k with a separate group of friends but have become intrigued.

I watched some warmachine battles on youtube and I only have a limited knowledge of the rules but movement and terrain dont really seem to play much of a part. Both forces seemed to face off against each other and rolled dice on a barren battlefield.

I know this is almost certainly my ignorance but what makes warmachine a viable alternative to 40k? What makes it better/worse? I am always keen to try new games and love the tactics side of a game but I am struggling to see it with warmachine. Help!

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Del Stuart
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Re: Warmachine and 40k....

Postby Del Stuart » Thu May 14, 2015 7:36 pm

As someone who came from 40k to Warmachine/hordes Il give you my reasons and why Ive stayed with it.


The ruleset is solid , unlike 40k where there is often debate against rules as written vs rules as intended (looking at you mawlock) Warmachine is rules as written and thats it.

The gulf between new and old stuff isnt bad , you dont win the game by playing the latest army. Sure something will come along thats overpowered but the love tends to be spread around more.

Also in 40k the units and vehicles etc tend to only look after themselves where as warmachine is more synergistic and there are lots of buffs and debuffs.

With the scenario and assassination mechanics you always have that slither of hope of pulling a clutch win even in bad times. unlike 40k where an Alpha strike can just end your game.

Terain does feature in Warmachine and each table should have about 6-7 pieces

Walls give you better defence and make you harder to hit and you cant charge over them without a special rule

Forests conceal you and can block LOS but you move slower through them without a special rule

Hills allow you to see over blocking models and give you a defence buff on them


But give it a go , I find it waaay more tactical than 40k and even more fun!
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Gazzor
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Re: Warmachine and 40k....

Postby Gazzor » Thu May 14, 2015 10:03 pm

Looks like you got a bunch of good answers on Dakka Dakka. :)

Adding to their, IMO great, answers.

1) A really really good forum for WMH. Rules queries are answered very very quickly, with designers sought for final clarifications if required.
http://privateerpressforums.com/forum.php

2) Player support. As well as great forums, rules erratta are issued every 2 months or so. But the forum rules answers are official until then. (90+% rules queries are actually in the rules, but may be hidden away).

3) More incentive to be balanced. I think it's fair to say that GW's release schecule incentivises them to make each book better than the last.
PP releases for 11 of the 12 factions on a rolling basis in an attempt to keep all factions equally appealing. They'll buff weak factions if they slip behind. But these releases are relatively gradual. They want to sell old stuff as well. You won't get a situation like you've got with Eldar jetbikes...
(There are odd exceptions though, such as the sudden surge in Skorne cataphract - basically terminators - lists, but they don't urinate over everything in sight, they're just a bit hard).

They also publish official army variants to flog undepowered models. A good example of this is a Troll vriant list where every troll is one point cheaper, from a limited selection of about 25% of the faction available. 11 trolls in 50 points is a very funny and potentially powerful list (But I've lost 4 of 5 games with it so far as it takes a lot of skill to play well).

Gaz
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dragonelf
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Re: Warmachine and 40k....

Postby dragonelf » Fri May 15, 2015 5:33 pm

Thanks so much for the replies. My concern was the epic battle feel. I'm not sure that warmachine feels like a battle from the little I have seen of it.

I don't want a game that feels like number crunching. I like the idea of the visual spectacle as well as the in game tactics.

I'm also not entirely sure where to start. I find the website not the most user friendly.

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Re: Warmachine and 40k....

Postby Gazzor » Fri May 15, 2015 6:25 pm

Hiya,

this is a good resource, but it can be very overwhelming if you don't know what you're looking for (There's far more variety than in 40k and you get mercs and minions that work for certain other factions to add to the confusion).

http://battlecollege.wikispaces.com/

The "elite" players scoff at some advice being off base, but I'd say it's 90% there.

You mentioned that you like Tau in 40k. WMH has a couple of shooty factions. IMO the premier of these is Cygnar.
http://battlecollege.wikispaces.com/Cygnar

Here's a pic of the best, IMO, casters.
http://battlecollege.wikispaces.com/Maj ... oria+Haley
http://battlecollege.wikispaces.com/Maj ... 7+Brisbane
http://battlecollege.wikispaces.com/Cap ... ster+Caine

One of their top units. Very ubiquitous. Sadly the models are 25mm scale in a 32mm game. :(
http://battlecollege.wikispaces.com/Bla ... trike+Team

Just be aware that WMH is balanced so that it is very difficult to win purely via shooting. PP realise that gunlines are not fun lines, so gun ranges are short and shooting does less damage per model point than melee. You need heavy hitters in the list as a tanky Troll or Skorne list will crush you.

I'll let the Dakka and possibly WHF guys give some more ideas.


Gaz
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dragonelf
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Re: Warmachine and 40k....

Postby dragonelf » Fri May 15, 2015 11:40 pm

Thanks so much for that. I use tau, it was my first 40k army but I am by no means a shooty player. I also have a space wolves army and chaos space marines which are more assault orientated.

Thanks for your thoughts and I will check out those links.

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Re: Warmachine and 40k....

Postby Gazzor » Sun May 17, 2015 12:22 am

Hi again,

2 more useful links on the BC page. There's so much info on there it's easy to get overwhelmed.

http://battlecollege.wikispaces.com/Newbie+Page
http://battlecollege.wikispaces.com/Faction+Overview

After reading some more, I concur with the Dakka guys. Circle might be more your thing.

They are pretty much the kings of janky tactical movement. You can teleport stuff around. With the right models you can teleport a guy 8" forwards, hit a bunch of enemies with spray attack and then teleport back behind a nearby wood.

http://battlecollege.wikispaces.com/Shifting+Stones
http://battlecollege.wikispaces.com/Blackclad+Wayfarer
http://battlecollege.wikispaces.com/Rotterhorn+Griffon

One of the basic casters can make a 4" diameter forest grow within 12" of him. If already in a forest he can then teleport into the new forest and attack anything within 2" of the edge, sometimes catching enemy casters in a killing run.

http://battlecollege.wikispaces.com/Bal ... onecleaver

There'sa unit that can turn their own guys into forests each turn - for a turn.
http://battlecollege.wikispaces.com/Sen ... +Mannikins

Circle do heavy melee okayish.
http://battlecollege.wikispaces.com/War ... kinwalkers

They also have a very good and hard hitting ranged unit - very short range, but fast and stealthy with after shooting reform option.
http://battlecollege.wikispaces.com/Tharn+Bloodtrackers

These are their two signature beasts (IMO). Gorax is as subtle as a brick in a sock, but does good work. Stalker can kill a bunch of stuff then easily get to safety.
http://battlecollege.wikispaces.com/Gorax
http://battlecollege.wikispaces.com/Warpwolf+Stalker




If 40k is 2/10 for tactics, Circle can get up to about 8-9/10. They play the way Wood Elves would play in WFB if the fantary rules were sophisticated enough to support such tactics.


Gaz
Have an infinite number of monkeys hammering on keyboards and you will get the Complete Works of Shakespeare.
Have Robin Cruddace hammering on a keyboard and you get the Tyranids codex...

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dragonelf
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Re: Warmachine and 40k....

Postby dragonelf » Mon May 18, 2015 5:51 pm

First of all Gazzor, thanks so much for your excellent help. It is great to find someone in the forum who is just trying to help a fellow player and not complaining about something!

I am not really a fan of the circle models or imagery and I wasn't really a wood elf style player in fantasy, more an old style lizardmen player if you get what i mean. Not a slann star player, more of a tactical movement with skinks, buffing magic and hit hard with saurus type player. I also used skaven and high elves if that helps. In 40k I play space wolves tau and dar eldar.

I like variety in my games, variety of options and armies.

In terms of warmahordes, I like the look of khador, skorne and cygnar but have no real idea how they play and which is the most flexible and versatile except from what I have got from the forums. I like the cryx imagery but dont really want to play another glass cannon army.

Looks like I might have to invest in some second hand books on ebay!

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Re: Warmachine and 40k....

Postby Gazzor » Mon May 18, 2015 10:00 pm

No problemo. Always nice to get new players into a great game.

And WMH players do complain a fair bit, but only because we expect such high standards from PP. :)

I've played extensively with Cryx, Khador and Skorne (As in own circa 75+ points of each). Skorne is my main faction, with circa 200+ points owned.

As you've correctly surmised, Cryx is a glass cannon army. You can actually make a tanky Cryx list, but it goes against the faction's strengths of hitting like a truck with tons of ludicrously cheap models.

I'd advise against Khador. The Khador issue is that their single wound infantry is excellent. And their casters are generally very good as well. Sadly the faction is in a funny design space whereby they don't have any armour buff abilities, aside from a feat on a mediocre caster. This is because they have some very high ARM casters and jacks (Base ARM25 until their arms get chopped off). This means that many Khador jacks are actually amongst the squishiest in the game.
Their heavy infantry, the super iconic Man O Wars, are also over costed and too slow to be good in scenarios. So they don't get taken.
Khador is therefore stuck with taking hordes of single wound infantry, which means that Khador gets hosed by Cygnar and Menoth, amongst others.

PP is trying to fix this, but it's very hard for them to design good heavy units as one of their casters turns models up to 11 with his feat. Hence why the cavalry and medium infantry are so mediocre, because he turns them into killing machines as is, and they'd be super sick otherwise.

http://battlecollege.wikispaces.com/Vla ... k+Champion

I can heartily recommend Skorne. Their internal balance is great. Only 1 duff caster, 2 below par beasts and some bad units, which you still see in some specialist tricksy lists. That's out of all these choices:
http://battlecollege.wikispaces.com/Skorne

Unlike Cygnar they don't rely on a few uber casters to carry them in games. This means that a great variety of builds is viable; although Fist of Halaak is currently favoured as it is very rude. Essentially 30+ terminator death wing with ARM15 or 16/20 and 8 boxes each. But it has counters, so doesn't just crush all and sundry like some previous GW power house armies did (Thinking about 7th ed Daemons here...)

I like variety in my games, variety of options and armies.


Skorne is where it's at. What they lack is decent hard cavalry; have no light cavalry (yet). Worst Battle Engine in the game. :( They also have no ball busting uber casters, which at least helps with variety.

In terms of lists, I've taken 7 heavies with Dominar Fatty.
http://battlecollege.wikispaces.com/Dominar+Rasheth

Also the aforementioned 30+ cataphracts list with Xerxis.
http://battlecollege.wikispaces.com/Tyrant+Xerxis

Also experimenting with Zaal and 60+ infantry to swamp the enemy. This is my anti-Cryx drop as the cataphracts list is otherwise better.
http://battlecollege.wikispaces.com/Sup ... %26+Kovaas

Gaz
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Have Robin Cruddace hammering on a keyboard and you get the Tyranids codex...

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Re: Warmachine and 40k....

Postby Cyel » Tue May 19, 2015 3:06 pm

As for the game not looking to epic, it's a valid concern. For sam reason people are very reluctant to agree to play a larger (100+pts) game. There's even a misconception, which I found (empirically) not true that the game crashes at such large point limits without using alternative Unbound rules. It may be difficult to convince people to try and see for themselves that the 100pts game is easily played in an evening (~4h) and needs just a few tweaks.

For example my 100pts, 2 caster battle had a limit on feats ( both feats cannot be used on the same turn or turn after turn, though I think that 1 feat per game limit is even better) and because we played with 4 different factions we decided to treat allied figures as neutral (neither Friendly nor Enemy)

W also plaed to 10CPs with casterkill granting additional 3CP (it should be 4 or even 5 in retrospect)

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