eggsPR wrote:Hi Dim,
The whole story is this, as I told both Titi and other players on the Swiss team.
After the end of day 2, the pairings showed that USA was to play the Swiss. This was great news indeed since we played each other in a friendly scrimmage before the event on the Thursday. Despite our team still being drunk from the night before we still had a great time playing you guys and we still thank you for reaching out to us.
Saturday evening came around and many folks were trying to warn us of slow playing with the Swiss. I couldn't recall if any slow playing happened during our scrimmage as I was still drunk from the night before and couldn't care less.
eggsPR wrote: Then I heard about specifics - coincidentally you, with a corner O&G list, only played, what, 4 turns against Danish BH?
This is true, we did not finish our game. I guess it is 70% my fault and 30% the Danish player fault. I played slowly in the beginning, mainly for deployment. Part of that was me looking for my models since the lunch break was so short. I don't deny I have been slow at that occasion.
I will let Troels and the Danish captain give their version of what happened, but I'd like to give mine since you seem to have heard the story from them in the first place.
1)There were a lot of refs calls on our table which could have been avoided, and this takes a lot of time.
For instance, Troels mistook a piece of terrain for a ruin when it was an impassable on the map. He took quite some time to discuss with the judge to try to take back an overrun. This could have been avoided with better terrain pieces though.
There was another ref call about this same unit being able to charge anything after stopping 1" from said impassable. The wheel was quite sloppy but he got it.
Then there was the "escaped die" issue, where Troels decided to use a die that accidentally escaped my hand and landed on 1 for the gargantula stomp. Troels told me "If you are in ETC you should be able to handle die", and "if it was a 6 you would have kept it" which is kind of implying I was trying to cheat. I did not like this and we had a talk with a ref again, which ended up with us using that 1.
The situation did not look so well for Troels in the middle of our game, but went a bit better by the end of the game (he finished my Gargantula, by making his lord attack after his longhorn herders, which I let through). This permitted him to reform his main unit which was beforhand trapped in its column formation.
I am not sure though who would have profited the most of the end of the game, since I lost scenario and had killed his lvl4 mage. Moreover his BSB was still engaged in a challenge with one of my squiggs and down to 1LP, likely to get killed. I had opened a way out for my main unit & characters, and thus was not going to loose big points afterwards. I think for both of us it was better to stop and not risk the -3 penalty, and thus we stopped 20 minutes in advance.
eggsPR wrote: Then I heard about other things... the Swiss KoE player not finishing his games.
He did finish all of his other games though.
eggsPR wrote:During this conversation we ran into one of the refs, and he also heard of the slow playing by the Swiss. As any concerned captain would do, I asked for a potential solution. And that solution the following:
Since the Swiss didn't finish all their games vs the Danes and it was noted as such, then before the match against USA, there would be a small meeting. So, me, the Swiss Captain, Coco, and Vasillies the ref all agreed that we were ALL going to finished our games, and to consider this meeting as "the warning", and any games that wouldn't finish would result in a penalty, and that both captains would be responsible to communicate this to the players.
My coach and my captain did not understood that it was a formal ref warning. They told me that the word "penalty" was never pronounced. Probably there was a misunderstanding there. Myself I've been very careful to finish my game, and we ended 30 minutes in advance if I recall correctly.
Then the round started, and I (USA VC) was paired against an alleged slow player... the KoE player. Nice guy he was, but boy was he slow - never saw someone take 10 minutes to move a unit 4" to the right, or 8m 45s to decie to not declare any charges. It was surprising that I witnessed this all while the ref was watching as well (though the ref was standing behind him, so perhaps he didn't know he was being watched for most of the game).
So, with me trying to play my fastest, and I mean FAST, the game still ended at a 18-2 to me before turn 6. Had we played turn 6 I'd have tabled him with a 20-0. Was a very frustrating game.
Side note: Coco was an absolute gentleman in our match. He was cordial, provided information to us on how the rounds were going and didn't speak a lick of French outside of timeouts. Thanks man.
But, I took lap times of the match, and while he took much longer in his turns, most of my turn's time was him deciding to dispel a spell (which, again, the ref witnessed). So, the ref came back around as I was packing up after the 18-2 was submitted and asked if we got 6 turns. I replied no and we proceeded to computer area to go over the lap times. After explaining everything about the captains meeting it was clear that something was going to be done about it. But Vasilles was at lunch and all the other refs needed to confirm that this meeting took place.
After 10 minutes, Vasillies came back, then I was called up front and explained the above to all 4 refs, with refs both confirming the slow playing (intentional or not) and the captains meeting. After explaining, they told me to leave and they would discuss and they would call me if they needed anything else. They never called me back up.
Then, as everyone saw, my 18-2 was converted to a 19-1, then back to a 18-2, then to a 19-1.
Did you asked for penalty or for getting 20-0?`Because then the ref call seems weird. No one is happy about the decision then. You only get half of what you want, and we get substracted 4 points more. I was not there to know if our player slow played you or not. He finished all his other games, so I would guess that if it happened it was not on purpose but that does not help you. Giving you 2 pts over could have been an option if we would have been asked anything.
I was also told that you were awarded points by our KoE player for what you were likely to get in the 6th turn. This summed up to 18-2 in the first place.
I would like to know if this fact is true and if it has been communicated to the refs before they made their decision.
After that, we were on to playing France round 6. Before those pairings poor Xavier ran up to me and was telling me to take back the 6 point penalty which I knew nothing about. I knew about the 19-1 only through tourneykeeper.
And that's it, really.
Am I salty that I didn't just get my deserved 20-0 against Swiss KoE? A little. Am I annoyed that the Swiss have the nerve to complain that they slow playing resulting in a penalty after they received a warning that if they slow played they'd receive a penalty? Yes deffo. Like... the refs told you to not play slow before game. What else do you need to just admit you were wrong and move on, videotaped games?
I'd like to see this game if you do have it. Please send it to me! I was not following it and I would like to judge by myself how bad that went.
Heh, if I'd had gotten that 1 point round 5 (20-0 instead of 19-1), USA would have podiumed at 3rd place. Also, the Danes would have had similar outcomes if their Swiss has they finished their games round 4, and that could have allowed them to easily podium over USA and Russia. Does anybody see a pattern here? Nobody is saying that the slow playing was intended with malice, but after speaking with the Swiss team members on the Sunday night drink session, they admitted that some of their players WERE SLOW PLAYERS, yourself included Dim. You're a cool dude but you are slow as mollasses and I don't think it's intentional - you just think alot.
In any case, all this drama and it's funny that the Swiss are least affected by it - they would've jumped Turkey for 9th with 6 more points.
With what ended up happening yes. But if we would not have failed a test on 9 rerollable with 3 dices you could have counted with at least 7 more points for us against Poland, and then it would have made a huge difference. We were competing for 3rd spot as well. Getting
I guess "slow players" in their mouth means "not fast players", not that we usually use stalling as a strategy.
Anyway, perhaps we can try to make this post positive with some potential solutions:
A) more enforcement of penalties (Swiss probably shouldn't have gotten the only slow playing penalty, but if they were made as an example, then hopefully the ends will justify the means in 2018)
Yes, but not only slow playing should be penalized. There are other bad behavior that should be penalized.
B) teams should focus on picking team members capable of thinking fast, and realise that playing slow is not a valid strategy to not lose a losing match (take it like a man and move on).
You are implying that playing slow was actually a strategy here. Please think twice before doing such accusations. It was most probably not intentional at all. You got awarded points for the last turn you could not play. Was that a fair point attribution? I was not there to know. If you have that game on tape you can release the end placement and anyone can see with his own eyes that you were right there. Or at least send it to me so that I can see what was at stake.
C) make rounds last even longer (with 2 games/day, make the rounds 4 hours)
D) chess clocks or otherwise
E) more refs (1 per table row)
C) seems clever, or at least more time between rounds to get the pairing strategy straight for the next round, eat and move models. 1h was kind of a difficult pace.