Penalties

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Gorgork
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Re: Penalties

Postby Gorgork » Wed Aug 09, 2017 1:58 pm

Furion wanted to finish the game and get the BP he would with a win. But his opponent didn't wanna shake on 15-5.


When I check on Tourney keeper i see 500 BP for Furion and 1 000 BP for Vince. How can you even propose a 15-5 ? When you take a look at the video you also see that it would have been quite complicated for Furion to have the center...

SO, when you have such a pathetic game, when the last result of the last game DO NOT influence the result of the round (France was capped already), why didn't you closed the game on a 10-10 and that's it ?!? Even more after the HUGE referee mistake, that took a lot of time to resolve by the way.
I saw this happen in some nasty ETC games in the past. You were the referee, you should have been impartial and close the debate on a 10-10, and not make this unfair proposal so Mister Furion could score his small BP to continue saying he is the best of I don't know what...

Guys, most of the game is on video :
https://www.facebook.com/pg/teamfrancee ... e_internal
First video is the one lasting 1:11:26
Then it continues in the one lasting 20:22

Check what happened, the mistakes, etc... Such bad faith from Furion saying Vince was stalling is just [-o<

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Re: Penalties

Postby orion 76 » Wed Aug 09, 2017 2:02 pm

There was some spanish dude filming the whole game of Vince vs Furion... Im gonna see if he can post on Youtube so we can all watch it. I am actually very curious to see this torture of a game. If he does, I will post the link here.


EDIT - ok, someone beat me to it. :P
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Re: Penalties

Postby Dim » Wed Aug 09, 2017 3:29 pm

eggsPR wrote:Hi Dim,

The whole story is this, as I told both Titi and other players on the Swiss team.

After the end of day 2, the pairings showed that USA was to play the Swiss. This was great news indeed since we played each other in a friendly scrimmage before the event on the Thursday. Despite our team still being drunk from the night before we still had a great time playing you guys and we still thank you for reaching out to us.

Saturday evening came around and many folks were trying to warn us of slow playing with the Swiss. I couldn't recall if any slow playing happened during our scrimmage as I was still drunk from the night before and couldn't care less.


Ok.

eggsPR wrote: Then I heard about specifics - coincidentally you, with a corner O&G list, only played, what, 4 turns against Danish BH?


This is true, we did not finish our game. I guess it is 70% my fault and 30% the Danish player fault. I played slowly in the beginning, mainly for deployment. Part of that was me looking for my models since the lunch break was so short. I don't deny I have been slow at that occasion.
I will let Troels and the Danish captain give their version of what happened, but I'd like to give mine since you seem to have heard the story from them in the first place.

1)There were a lot of refs calls on our table which could have been avoided, and this takes a lot of time.

For instance, Troels mistook a piece of terrain for a ruin when it was an impassable on the map. He took quite some time to discuss with the judge to try to take back an overrun. This could have been avoided with better terrain pieces though.

There was another ref call about this same unit being able to charge anything after stopping 1" from said impassable. The wheel was quite sloppy but he got it.

Then there was the "escaped die" issue, where Troels decided to use a die that accidentally escaped my hand and landed on 1 for the gargantula stomp. Troels told me "If you are in ETC you should be able to handle die", and "if it was a 6 you would have kept it" which is kind of implying I was trying to cheat. I did not like this and we had a talk with a ref again, which ended up with us using that 1.

The situation did not look so well for Troels in the middle of our game, but went a bit better by the end of the game (he finished my Gargantula, by making his lord attack after his longhorn herders, which I let through). This permitted him to reform his main unit which was beforhand trapped in its column formation.

I am not sure though who would have profited the most of the end of the game, since I lost scenario and had killed his lvl4 mage. Moreover his BSB was still engaged in a challenge with one of my squiggs and down to 1LP, likely to get killed. I had opened a way out for my main unit & characters, and thus was not going to loose big points afterwards. I think for both of us it was better to stop and not risk the -3 penalty, and thus we stopped 20 minutes in advance.

eggsPR wrote: Then I heard about other things... the Swiss KoE player not finishing his games.


He did finish all of his other games though.

eggsPR wrote:During this conversation we ran into one of the refs, and he also heard of the slow playing by the Swiss. As any concerned captain would do, I asked for a potential solution. And that solution the following:

Since the Swiss didn't finish all their games vs the Danes and it was noted as such, then before the match against USA, there would be a small meeting. So, me, the Swiss Captain, Coco, and Vasillies the ref all agreed that we were ALL going to finished our games, and to consider this meeting as "the warning", and any games that wouldn't finish would result in a penalty, and that both captains would be responsible to communicate this to the players.


My coach and my captain did not understood that it was a formal ref warning. They told me that the word "penalty" was never pronounced. Probably there was a misunderstanding there. Myself I've been very careful to finish my game, and we ended 30 minutes in advance if I recall correctly.

Then the round started, and I (USA VC) was paired against an alleged slow player... the KoE player. Nice guy he was, but boy was he slow - never saw someone take 10 minutes to move a unit 4" to the right, or 8m 45s to decie to not declare any charges. It was surprising that I witnessed this all while the ref was watching as well (though the ref was standing behind him, so perhaps he didn't know he was being watched for most of the game).

So, with me trying to play my fastest, and I mean FAST, the game still ended at a 18-2 to me before turn 6. Had we played turn 6 I'd have tabled him with a 20-0. Was a very frustrating game.

Side note: Coco was an absolute gentleman in our match. He was cordial, provided information to us on how the rounds were going and didn't speak a lick of French outside of timeouts. Thanks man.

But, I took lap times of the match, and while he took much longer in his turns, most of my turn's time was him deciding to dispel a spell (which, again, the ref witnessed). So, the ref came back around as I was packing up after the 18-2 was submitted and asked if we got 6 turns. I replied no and we proceeded to computer area to go over the lap times. After explaining everything about the captains meeting it was clear that something was going to be done about it. But Vasilles was at lunch and all the other refs needed to confirm that this meeting took place.

After 10 minutes, Vasillies came back, then I was called up front and explained the above to all 4 refs, with refs both confirming the slow playing (intentional or not) and the captains meeting. After explaining, they told me to leave and they would discuss and they would call me if they needed anything else. They never called me back up.

Then, as everyone saw, my 18-2 was converted to a 19-1, then back to a 18-2, then to a 19-1.


Did you asked for penalty or for getting 20-0?`Because then the ref call seems weird. No one is happy about the decision then. You only get half of what you want, and we get substracted 4 points more. I was not there to know if our player slow played you or not. He finished all his other games, so I would guess that if it happened it was not on purpose but that does not help you. Giving you 2 pts over could have been an option if we would have been asked anything.

I was also told that you were awarded points by our KoE player for what you were likely to get in the 6th turn. This summed up to 18-2 in the first place.
I would like to know if this fact is true and if it has been communicated to the refs before they made their decision.

After that, we were on to playing France round 6. Before those pairings poor Xavier ran up to me and was telling me to take back the 6 point penalty which I knew nothing about. I knew about the 19-1 only through tourneykeeper.

And that's it, really.

Am I salty that I didn't just get my deserved 20-0 against Swiss KoE? A little. Am I annoyed that the Swiss have the nerve to complain that they slow playing resulting in a penalty after they received a warning that if they slow played they'd receive a penalty? Yes deffo. Like... the refs told you to not play slow before game. What else do you need to just admit you were wrong and move on, videotaped games?


I'd like to see this game if you do have it. Please send it to me! I was not following it and I would like to judge by myself how bad that went.

Heh, if I'd had gotten that 1 point round 5 (20-0 instead of 19-1), USA would have podiumed at 3rd place. Also, the Danes would have had similar outcomes if their Swiss has they finished their games round 4, and that could have allowed them to easily podium over USA and Russia. Does anybody see a pattern here? Nobody is saying that the slow playing was intended with malice, but after speaking with the Swiss team members on the Sunday night drink session, they admitted that some of their players WERE SLOW PLAYERS, yourself included Dim. You're a cool dude but you are slow as mollasses and I don't think it's intentional - you just think alot.

In any case, all this drama and it's funny that the Swiss are least affected by it - they would've jumped Turkey for 9th with 6 more points.

With what ended up happening yes. But if we would not have failed a test on 9 rerollable with 3 dices you could have counted with at least 7 more points for us against Poland, and then it would have made a huge difference. We were competing for 3rd spot as well. Getting

I guess "slow players" in their mouth means "not fast players", not that we usually use stalling as a strategy.

Anyway, perhaps we can try to make this post positive with some potential solutions:

A) more enforcement of penalties (Swiss probably shouldn't have gotten the only slow playing penalty, but if they were made as an example, then hopefully the ends will justify the means in 2018)

Yes, but not only slow playing should be penalized. There are other bad behavior that should be penalized.
B) teams should focus on picking team members capable of thinking fast, and realise that playing slow is not a valid strategy to not lose a losing match (take it like a man and move on).


You are implying that playing slow was actually a strategy here. Please think twice before doing such accusations. It was most probably not intentional at all. You got awarded points for the last turn you could not play. Was that a fair point attribution? I was not there to know. If you have that game on tape you can release the end placement and anyone can see with his own eyes that you were right there. Or at least send it to me so that I can see what was at stake.


C) make rounds last even longer (with 2 games/day, make the rounds 4 hours)

D) chess clocks or otherwise

E) more refs (1 per table row)


-Chris



C) seems clever, or at least more time between rounds to get the pairing strategy straight for the next round, eat and move models. 1h was kind of a difficult pace.
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Re: Penalties

Postby vince3310 » Wed Aug 09, 2017 3:44 pm

On the other hand, when I came to you, you said "congratulations for winning the ETC", then when I wanted to shake hands, you refused, saying that it was an irony. You think that's normal? Maybe you guys should think about your own behaviour first, hmm?

I was very angry at the end of the game and my words was hard with you. Hope you'll accept my apologize.

Calling our whole team cheaters is normal? You guys lost on 7 tables, fair and square. Think about other ways to handle your frustration please.

I only played 2 Poland guy. The second one was your VC player, very fair and great player.
My OG player told me that you were very clean and fair.
So, my post was not to accuse all Poland, just the one i played.

You are a better team than us, no problem with that. I think it's normal that you win but not in this way. You don't need it.
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Re: Penalties

Postby Rince » Wed Aug 09, 2017 4:30 pm

vince3310 wrote:
On the other hand, when I came to you, you said "congratulations for winning the ETC", then when I wanted to shake hands, you refused, saying that it was an irony. You think that's normal? Maybe you guys should think about your own behaviour first, hmm?

I was very angry at the end of the game and my words was hard with you. Hope you'll accept my apologize.

Calling our whole team cheaters is normal? You guys lost on 7 tables, fair and square. Think about other ways to handle your frustration please.

I only played 2 Poland guy. The second one was your VC player, very fair and great player.
My OG player told me that you were very clean and fair.
So, my post was not to accuse all Poland, just the one i played.

You are a better team than us, no problem with that. I think it's normal that you win but not in this way. You don't need it.


Sure, bro. No hard feelings :wink:

It's just that we are Team Poland not Team 8xFurion. Please remember that and please also tell Emilie that she shouldn't make hurtful presumptions.

And if you guys want to visit Poland and play in our tournaments your are more then welcome. Maybe you will see for yourselves that you were wrong about us.

Bisous.
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Re: Penalties

Postby Arrow » Wed Aug 09, 2017 5:07 pm

Hello everybody,
I'm Emilie, in charge of the facebook page of the Team France.
I'm not a good player but I know a minimum of rules of this game.
I've done a lot of live videos during the ETC but the one that had the more watchers was the one between Vince and Furion for many reasons.
As someone has mentionned me in a previous post, i have to tell what I've seen and what i've said.
1/ Furion wasn't correct as he threatens Vince during the game.
2/ Furion asks many times the refs to come and if the idea was to play faster for him, in fact, it's exactly the opposite that happened. I think he was purely asking easy questions to loose time. Everybody around the table was saying that it was impossible to play at that level and asking so many questions...
3/ A ref allowed a movement even if everybody around had a enormous doubt on it. I've asked for a doublechecked but I've been told that was not worth. When they realized that the movement wasn't correct, it was too late but Nothing was decided to compensate the error.
Regarding the error, the game wouldn't have been the same so a 10-10 would have be fair ( to my mind).
4/ Furion while playing slowly dared to ask for penalities against Vince fot stalling :shock:
5/Before the game, I've asked the community manager the name of the polish team page so i can follow and share pictures etc etc... But during the game, some fans have written in polish on the french team facebook page some insults so i had to banish them and when I approach the polish community manager to tell her, I see that she is on the French Team facebook page writing something, so i took the pictures of her. That's why when the polish comes to me, i'm a bit nervous and I told him that if someone wants to say something to the team, he can say it directly, not through my facebook page and I've said that we will discuss outside on the parking ( but i was joking at this moment with my 50kg )
And it's true I've said that if France organizes an ETC, i think that players like Furion shouldn't be accepted and that the polish team should find another player to replace Furion so to have a correct team with no cheater.
It was just my opinion, i'm not a decision maker in France, just the girl friend of a p
layer :lol:

I'm disapointed that games of this level could fall out like this. It's a shame that this type of player did not have at least a penality
I just want to give my apologies to the polish community manager because i've attacked her at the end of the game with no reason except the behaviour of her husband Furion, I regret sincerely.

Anyway, If someone wants to see the videos:
https://www.facebook.com/teamfranceetc2 ... 289379227/
https://www.facebook.com/teamfranceetc2 ... 159375840/

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Re: Penalties

Postby eggsPR » Wed Aug 09, 2017 5:34 pm

Dim,

I won't use quotes, but:

70% your fault vs the Danes seems like that a formal team-based warning was warranted.

The word "penalty" was used in the pre-game meeting with the ref... that was the point of the meeting. The meeting was the warning. Your captain and NPC both must've misheard. But I assure you the word penalty was used as that was the point of the meeting.

I had zero clue as to the 6 point penalty and it was never discussed with me. All I asked for was my 20 (which was due to me). I thought the penalty was going to be 20-0 from 18-2, which would've been fair to USA. I did not ask for any additional penalty, nor knew that these additional penalties existed. Had I known I could've gotten 20 between ourselves, the refs would have never known because I'd had gotten what was due to me. However since our game took so darn long, everybody was off to lunch moments after the scores were submitted because the round was over, and the only people in the hall were the refs who asked me about the game. though I recall seeing you seeing me speaking to the refs, then you sprinted out the venue towards the lunch hall to inform the team that I was speaking to the refs. Had your captain sprinted back to resolve the issue, who knows what would've happened, because nobody came back.

I wish I videotaped that game - it was one my best performances in the ETC by getting zombie dragon into that brigand bunker, taking out the general and watching peaseants flee off the table by the dozens. But alas, I don't have it.

Not implying picking slow players is a strategy, but if team USA candidates are taking too long in their games (tactical or not), they won't be considered for the team. Must think, and think fast, but that's just us.

Team USA will bring 8 chess clocks to Croatia. If players on other teams are unsure how to use it - no worries. Our team will have a year to practice pressing the buttons back to other players when they are deciding to decide tabel sides, deploy units, dispel spells, then back to us when DD are rolled, and other things of this nature. Then there will be no issues anymore about slow playing or whether it's intentional or not.
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Re: Penalties

Postby laik » Wed Aug 09, 2017 6:19 pm

I was surprised that before the games you wanted me to confirm to the camera that if any Polish player will cheat he will not come to the ETC next year - looked like you had your opinion made before we've started the match - which is weird because there were never any problems with Polish players in the past.
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Re: Penalties

Postby Rince » Wed Aug 09, 2017 6:24 pm

eggsPR wrote:Team USA will bring 8 chess clocks to Croatia. If players on other teams are unsure how to use it - no worries. Our team will have a year to practice pressing the buttons back to other players when they are deciding to decide tabel sides, deploy units, dispel spells, then back to us when DD are rolled, and other things of this nature. Then there will be no issues anymore about slow playing or whether it's intentional or not.


Guys, you have to understand one thing. There are several different kinds of battles. You can play porno defensive skv or elven army which has 14 units vs offensive deamons list consisting of 7 units. It's obvious that the defender will need more time. You can play WDG mirror match (both armies without magic nor shooting phase) and still movement phases will take ages cause both sides have super fast lists with many possible plays.

It's just the nature of warhammer.
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Re: Penalties

Postby Rince » Wed Aug 09, 2017 6:31 pm

laik wrote:I was surprised that before the games you wanted me to confirm to the camera that if any Polish player will cheat he will not come to the ETC next year - looked like you had your opinion made before we've started the match - which is weird because there were never any problems with Polish players in the past.


Yes, that's true Emilie. That's why I was kinda sad that you made those presumptions before our game has even started :( We are not the disciples of the satan himself, seriously :) You have treated us unfairly. Just don't it again and all will be fine. Hope to see you guys next year. Or maybe sooner, if u are willing to give us a chance ;)
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Re: Penalties

Postby eggsPR » Wed Aug 09, 2017 6:56 pm

Rince wrote:
eggsPR wrote:Team USA will bring 8 chess clocks to Croatia. If players on other teams are unsure how to use it - no worries. Our team will have a year to practice pressing the buttons back to other players when they are deciding to decide tabel sides, deploy units, dispel spells, then back to us when DD are rolled, and other things of this nature. Then there will be no issues anymore about slow playing or whether it's intentional or not.


Guys, you have to understand one thing. There are several different kinds of battles. You can play porno defensive skv or elven army which has 14 units vs offensive deamons list consisting of 7 units. It's obvious that the defender will need more time. You can play WDG mirror match (both armies without magic nor shooting phase) and still movement phases will take ages cause both sides have super fast lists with many possible plays.

It's just the nature of warhammer.


Defender or not, if one person eats up so much time that game cannot finish it will be accurately and openly documented, and penalties should be applied if it's proven that one person stalled (intentionally or otherwise should be irrelevant with respect to penalties).

Potential solution to players who require much time moving units would be to roll that player onto an army with lesser units, or practice their movements so much so that their movements/tactics become more instinctual which ofc takes less time. Another solution would be to conduct team practices with round times at least 15 minutes less than what ETC would allow - this forces a player to think faster.

Though, saying one player needs more time to evade a sticky situation to me doesn't hold too much water. A defensive player should be able to evade as fast a an aggressive player who's trying to invade. Both players should be masters of their respective crafts in my opinion.
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Re: Penalties

Postby Rince » Wed Aug 09, 2017 7:13 pm

eggsPR wrote:Defender or not, if one person eats up so much time that game cannot finish it will be accurately and openly documented, and penalties should be applied if it's proven that one person stalled (intentionally or otherwise should be irrelevant with respect to penalties).


No, it doesn't work like this, bro. Following your logic, I would always consider making pairings based on what you just said... It's not stalling... I'ts just the nature of some armies/pairings. Some battles take less time by default, some requires more to be finished.
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Re: Penalties

Postby Arrow » Wed Aug 09, 2017 7:37 pm

Rince wrote:Yes, that's true Emilie. That's why I was kinda sad that you made those presumptions before our game has even started :( We are not the disciples of the satan himself, seriously :) You have treated us unfairly. Just don't it again and all will be fine. Hope to see you guys next year. Or maybe sooner, if u are willing to give us a chance ;)

Hi Rince, i understand that you are the polish coach.
please don't relate words or sentences I've never said.
I've never asked you to do any videos... if you ask people not to make confusion between Furion and the polish team, I'm sure you can understand that it's not True to say that I've asked for a video of you.
You are changing the truth, It's not the best way to obtain consideration or support on this forum.
Only facts can bring the truth, so please stop trying to attract sympathy with lies and have a look to the videos so you can see what really happened.
I do not represent the Team France opinion, everyone has experienced differently the games France-Poland.
I have been watching the game Furion vs Vince 70% of the time which is not the case of a lot a persons

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Re: Penalties

Postby eggsPR » Wed Aug 09, 2017 7:54 pm

Rince wrote:
eggsPR wrote:Defender or not, if one person eats up so much time that game cannot finish it will be accurately and openly documented, and penalties should be applied if it's proven that one person stalled (intentionally or otherwise should be irrelevant with respect to penalties).


No, it doesn't work like this, bro. Following your logic, I would always consider making pairings based on what you just said... It's not stalling... I'ts just the nature of some armies/pairings. Some battles take less time by default, some requires more to be finished.


You're correct in that it doesn't work like this, currently. Next year the ETC rulespack may change, though.

Games generally don't finish 6 turns by 3 ways.

1) The rulespack doesn't allow ample time for games (either by too little time allowance or allowing too many points in army lists)
2) Both players take too much time
3) One player takes too much time

We'll be looking to address points 1 & 3 for next year.
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Re: Penalties

Postby Rince » Wed Aug 09, 2017 7:57 pm

Arrow wrote:Hi Rince, i understand that you are the polish coach.
please don't relate words or sentences I've never said.
I've never asked you to do any videos... if you ask people not to make confusion between Furion and the polish team, I'm sure you can understand that it's not True to say that I've asked for a video of you.
You are changing the truth, It's not the best way to obtain consideration or support on this forum.
Only facts can bring the truth, so please stop trying to attract sympathy with lies and have a look to the videos so you can see what really happened.
I do not represent the Team France opinion, everyone has experienced differently the games France-Poland.
I have been watching the game Furion vs Vince 70% of the time which is not the case of a lot a persons


And i never had anything to do with the said videos. I think we are witnessing some kind of miscommunication :)

Doesn't matter, Emilie. We are not trying to attract any sympathy. Just chillout. Our community is so small that we shouldn't argue about things that dosn't matter in the big picture. Make love, not war. Tu comprends, ma cherie? ;) Gros bisous.
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Re: Penalties

Postby Rince » Wed Aug 09, 2017 8:03 pm

eggsPR wrote:
Rince wrote:
eggsPR wrote:Defender or not, if one person eats up so much time that game cannot finish it will be accurately and openly documented, and penalties should be applied if it's proven that one person stalled (intentionally or otherwise should be irrelevant with respect to penalties).


No, it doesn't work like this, bro. Following your logic, I would always consider making pairings based on what you just said... It's not stalling... I'ts just the nature of some armies/pairings. Some battles take less time by default, some requires more to be finished.


You're correct in that it doesn't work like this, currently. Next year the ETC rulespack may change, though.

Games generally don't finish 6 turns by 3 ways.

1) The rulespack doesn't allow ample time for games (either by too little time allowance or allowing too many points in army lists)
2) Both players take too much time
3) One player takes too much time

We'll be looking to address points 1 & 3 for next year.


It will work like this no matter what. Please think about what I said about some pairings. The only reasonable solution is to give players +30 minuts. We are currently playing 2 games per day. 1h in total wouldn't change the time schedule immensly but it would help slower players.
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Re: Penalties

Postby orion 76 » Wed Aug 09, 2017 8:04 pm

I cannot believe some people dont consider 3 hrs and 30 mins enough time to complete 6 bloody turns of warhammer. Ive been to 4 ETCs and I have never failed to finish a game, nor have my opponents... maybe in some local events but not at the ETC. Just like we have a minimum amount of units that an army has to field, perhaps there should be a maximum too. This new MSU meta since 1.2 was introduced leads to some absurd armies with 16/17 units including solo mounted characters. The emphasis on Scoring is too high also, leading to such MSU nonsense.
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Re: Penalties

Postby Furion » Wed Aug 09, 2017 9:03 pm

I am really happy that the most problematic game was filmed. This way everyone dedicated eough to know the truth can find the answer.
Lesson for me is to bring the chess clock myself and maybe to draw some basic 2nd geometry graphs, so one can accept the fact that Fire Fenix can burn in T1 in less than 10 minutes. Or some other stuff like that.

Although the method used by Swiss (card to be signed every turn on agreed distances) is blunt, it might be of use.
Arrow wrote:1/ Furion wasn't correct as he threatens Vince during the game.
2/ Furion asks many times the refs to come and if the idea was to play faster for him, in fact, it's exactly the opposite that happened. I think he was purely asking easy questions to loose time. Everybody around the table was saying that it was impossible to play at that level and asking so many questions...

1/ no idea what that's supposed to mean. When I'm rustled I can be intimidating :D
2/ It's Mr. Vince who tried to pass bullshit that cavalry bases are not 25 mm and hence my unit should be wider and couldn't wheel. Your assumption about level of play is incorrect. No one would argue about such sillyness.

3/ A ref allowed a movement even if everybody around had a enormous doubt on it. I've asked for a doublechecked but I've been told that was not worth. When they realized that the movement wasn't correct, it was too late but Nothing was decided to compensate the error.

I am equally unhappy about this ruling. It made unnecessary tension. I wanted to confirm legality of this movement from the very beginning, hence I called a judge. How insane is it to blame me, for calling a ref to confirm legality of my own movements?

Regarding the error, the game wouldn't have been the same so a 10-10 would have be fair ( to my mind).

You know nothing Jon Snow.
I am really ashamed that I left Mr. VInce go with 5 points. Stallers shouldn't be granted such discounts.

4/ Furion while playing slowly dared to ask for penalities against Vince fot stalling :shock:

Check the bloody footage!

Let me explain to you how this game would unfold, it will be a quick description since not much can happen:
VC T3 combat, corpse cart dies (before challenge he has 1 wound left)
HE T4, Sky Sloop charges Grave Guard rear, Fenix goes over ghouls, stops in front of grave guards. Archers shoot ghouls, spearmen block ghouls, in combat the general dies (10 dice 3+ then 2+) and my chariot makes reform, moves 10 mm to side making grave guard obsolete regardless if VC get lucky and do 4 wounds on Sky Sloop with 4 Attacks.
VC T4 possibly sky sloop dies
HE T5 Nothing happens since there are no VC units left.

It's a clear 20:0. I'm really not happy that I let a staller go with 5 points.

I'm disapointed that games of this level could fall out like this.

High level games don't have VC general vs enemy fighting lord before their T3.
This wasn't a high level game, I'm sorry :(

Also, your presence near the table and your remarks only worsened the situation.
Like your comments on the movement of archers, you were already on a witch hunt.
How crazy one must be to release his frustration on a guy who asked the judge is his own move legal?
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Re: Penalties

Postby polux » Wed Aug 09, 2017 11:00 pm

Hi,

I just want to add my two cent because as a Swiss player having played against Poland I think I can add something.
To keep things clear I'll make two different answers since there is two debate in this thread: Swiss Penalty vs USA and Furion bad sportsmanship.

1) Swiss Penalty vs USA.

We effectively had a game were a player played too slow and deserved a penalty (against Denmark). Except we got our penalty against USA. Against Denmark one player play too slow (he is just slow not stalling) and could clearly get a penalty but since it was his first time he got none.
Then a game were a different player play only 5 turn come, a totally classical situation. However there he get a penalty even thought he agreed with his opponent.

What I really regret here is that the bad case was not punished and the second tend to be ruling abuse. Do not get me wrong Chris, you had the right to finish the game. What I regret is that by simply calling a judge before the game saying you want to end it you can then accuse your opponent of slow playing if it does not finish. Because at the end the stalling is just word against word and calling a judge at the beginning should not prove you right. Remember, you played only 10 minutes less (on the resume you showed us) which is not that much.

We could have simply agreed both team. In fact we thought you were okay with this until we got the penalty. Seriously your opponent was of good will and we would have let you have the last 1 points had you told us you thought you deserved it. I feel that going with the judge was too much.

All in all one not deserved penalty and one deserved escape kind of equalize but this is still a bit odd.

2) Furion

Having played against Poland I can say that many of their player are really cool. They deserved to win ETC and playing for the first place always makes thing a bit tense so it is normal that some problem may happen.

That said there is problem with SOME polish player, Furion to not name him. I really do not understand how the judge can permanently be at his table and he never get any penalty. I won't talk about cheating or how he play since I have not played against him so I will only use facts.

-When other teams get penalty I feel really disgusting that you can get away by playing 3 turn even when the opponent complain.
-It is also ridiculous that someone using the judge so much don't get some penalty for slow playing at least.
-Last one for the judge also: how can you accept to modify the score of the game at the end like this? I mean you are like us you know that France is already capped and that poland do not care about penalty points. If really you wanted to be equal just put penalty for both player because the game ended turn 3 but extrapolating the results in favor of one player from turn 3 is unacceptable and totally prone to abuse!!!! I would have said the same have you put 20-0 for Vince, extrapolating fro turn 3 is just plain WRONG.

also:

"I am really ashamed that I left Mr. VInce go with 5 points. Stallers shouldn't be granted such discounts."


These kind of accusation are really disgusting, you are not serving your case dude. I really can feel why Vince didn't wanted to shake your hand.

3) Conclusion

To conclude I think that there is a real problem with the judging as it is prone to abuse. Most of the game are done between gentleman and the results are agreed upon. However if someone really want to cheat he can easily not care about judges. The judge is not omniscient and this is word against word usually. There is load of game finishing before turn 6 and nothing is done. What I propose is that we should have rule that are not depending on if a judge is called or not. Something like:

-less than 4 turn= automatic huge penalty.
-4 turn=small penalty.
-5 turn= we can let people agree.
-not finishing many time= add a huge penalty.

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Re: Penalties

Postby eggsPR » Wed Aug 09, 2017 11:38 pm

Perhaps it was fate that Swiss and USA had that debacle. Had I received the 20 instead of 19, USA would have podiumed at 3rd place uncontested instead of getting beaten out by uncapped points.

Now, while that would have been cool to get 3rd, I don't feel that it would have been warranted. Russia and Denmark had the better teams, and jumping them wouldn't have felt right.

This Team USA was new (4 newbloods), but it's strong... next year I hope it will be stronger and we hope to achieve a podium spot... with chess clocks :8)



Additionally, has anybody considered having a separate sect of "refs" targeted to investigate potential stalling? Heck, call them Time Wardens instead of refs. They wouldn't need to know all the rules... just hang back and see if somebody is showing signs of stalling. This way the refs can ref, and the Time Wardens can babysit games which may need babysitting.
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Re: Penalties

Postby Lagerlof » Thu Aug 10, 2017 7:37 am

polux wrote:
2) Furion


That said there is problem with SOME polish player, Furion to not name him. I really do not understand how the judge can permanently be at his table and he never get any penalty. I won't talk about cheating or how he play since I have not played against him so I will only use facts.




Penalty for what?

I was very close to just end the Poland-Swiss game with Furion at 10-10 because they just kept argue and it didn't seem like they could finish the game in a nice manner.

But if Furion is such a cheater, why did the Swiss player move his dragon 1.5" too far in the first turn (and other units after)? Why did he use Martial Dicipline on his terror test?

Now Furion did similar mistakes during the game, but as a Ref I didn't interfere unless one of them pointed it out.

Honestly they were both Angle Shooting alot during the game, on purpose or not I can't say. But in a HbE vs HbE game someone should know how their AWSR works XD

My main issue with Furion is his temper, warrented or not that behaviour will not go unpunished the next time I am at an ETC.

As for Angle Shooting in general, I'm not sure how to best solve it. We were too few refs to keep track of games. Also I'm very much against the "Refs won't interfere" rule as that promotes Angle Shooting.
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Re: Penalties

Postby Gorgork » Thu Aug 10, 2017 8:12 am

You know nothing Jon Snow.
I am really ashamed that I left Mr. VInce go with 5 points. Stallers shouldn't be granted such discounts.


Hahaha, and you fear nothing seriously =D> =D>

Vince played 11 games last week = > only one problem : WITH YOU
You played 6 games = > I see at least 4 teams (France, Switzerland, Luxembourg, Denmark) complaining about your attitude and I read that at least 2 of your games (France and Switzerland) had problems with time/stalling.

I am equally unhappy about this ruling. It made unnecessary tension. I wanted to confirm legality of this movement from the very beginning, hence I called a judge.

From what I saw you are not "calling the judge", you are pushing him to take a bad decision in a very tense game and using all of your Furion "the best player in the world" aura to influence the decision. What you did during ALL the game, additionally to calling him to ask basic questions that "a top player" shouldn't ask, loosing always more time this way.

And last but not least, I do not see ANY of your comrades come to your support... All I see is that they are all trying to defend their honor as, because of your attitude, your country starts to suffer from a very bad image (probably more than it should be). I hope they will do something against your stupid acting and provocations like you did above.

Cheers

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Re: Penalties

Postby Rince » Thu Aug 10, 2017 9:28 am

Guys, I think it's high time we end this discussion. Furion is not a cheater. Far from it. We have been playing against him for several years. He is just a player who abuses every slightest mistake that his opponent has made during the battle. Sometimes not in the most gentlemanly fashion, but hey, you shouldn't call him a cheater just because of that. He is very ambitious as well. His goal is always 20-0, so I doubt that he tried to stall any of those 6 games. Give him some credit. I can promise you next year he will be as gentle as a lamb.

http://www.pomniejszacz.pl/files/photo_13.png

Seriously? Well, I guess haters gonna hate.
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Re: Penalties

Postby Razon » Thu Aug 10, 2017 9:33 am

Time stalling is one of the worst forms of cheating in our hobby. And it is very difficult to solve.

Chess clocks won't solve anything. First of all they are not official. And secondly can be 'altered' (easy to move the time back or forward), are easy to forget because one needs to switch time on both their turns and their opponents (had situation in chess tournaments where my opponent would think about an obvious move for 15+min, because I forgot to punch the clock after my turn, putting a lot of pressure on my next moves), can be a source of argument and additional time will be wasted...
Chess clocks would work if all the players were 'on the level'. They are not. There were a lot of arguments about 'agreeing' and then players going back on their word/ outright lying. On both top and bottom tables.
Only thing that works on those people are sanctions. Hard sanctions.

So, I propose the following:
The Tourney Keeper gets additional match information for each match-up: did the game finish all 6 turns. If no, there is a penalty for both players. No questions asked, no explanations of any kind. I know that sometimes it's only one players fault. But this is the only way and will help the 'good players' in the long run.
So, for each player on the team the 'Time penalty' is checked at the end of the tournament.
One game not finished: -1 team point. For two, -3. For three, -10. For four, -20. For five and six -40 and ban from the future ETCs.

I know this is a lot of work, and there will be cases of players getting penalties that they did not deserve. But this is the only way for cheaters to stop and desist with their intentional time stalling. Prior to the game itself.
And this is alongside current Time Stalling rules, meaning a player can still get to call a judge and additional penalties may apply (for example changing the game result to 20-0), besides the cumulative ones. Or a player might be later omitted from the penalty because a judge sow he was being trolled or cheated.
And players can still agree to 'check' that the game was finished, even if it wasn't. In cases where they both are happy with the game, had fun, didn't want to rush things, one of them surrendered, what ever the reason.


Now, as for the behaviour or the sportmanship factor. I know a case in 40K where a judge gave a penalty card to a player that played hard, was correct about the rules and told his opponent and the judge 'he doesn't give a fu*k about sportmanship' during a ruling argument. And that the next year he was banned from the national team from his team captain.
I really don't know why is 9th Age not on par with this. Players that play hard and go out of heir way to make their opponent's games bad experience should be banned from ETC. Or get punched in the face. Really, even the most law systems in countries around the world identify both physical violence and psychological violence as both forms of violence. If one is ok by the 9th Age ETC rules, so should be the other...
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Re: Penalties

Postby Rince » Thu Aug 10, 2017 9:44 am

-5th battle, 1 row, Italy vs Denmark
-Porno dark elves vs porno hbe
-Best players from both teams
-They both play super good movement phases and each of them must come up with some brilliant solution for the next turn to counter his opponents movements.

It just takes time... You get it? And even if they play 4 turns, this game might be the best they've ever played.
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Re: Penalties

Postby laik » Thu Aug 10, 2017 10:01 am

laik wrote:I was surprised that before the games you wanted me to confirm to the camera that if any Polish player will cheat he will not come to the ETC next year - looked like you had your opinion made before we've started the match - which is weird because there were never any problems with Polish players in the past.


I'd like someone from team France to answer why it happened - I felt offended with such a question right at the begining.
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Re: Penalties

Postby Snake1311 » Thu Aug 10, 2017 10:01 am

eggsPR wrote:Games generally don't finish 6 turns by 3 ways.

1) The rulespack doesn't allow ample time for games (either by too little time allowance or allowing too many points in army lists)
2) Both players take too much time
3) One player takes too much time

We'll be looking to address points 1 & 3 for next year.


Why not point 2 as well?

I'm with Razon on this. Playing slowly - intentional or not - is just as bad as flat out cheating. You are cheating me out of my last turn(s), which could be crucial to me, I've built my gameplan around having 6 turns.

And penalties need to be heavier. One game, warning (you can't prove whose fault it is), and then rapidly scaling up. Game 2, -5 BP, Game 3 - 20BP (its almost certainly at least partly your fault by then). Game 4, red card. If you can't play your half of 6 turns in more than 1.5 hours, you don't belong at ETC.


I'm tempted to bring a chess clock, and I've never even had an unfinished game in 6 years of ETC, just by listening to this s**t. What the hell are you people even doing on table? Just get on with it.


As far as the Polish team goes, my game with Konrad was reasonably pleasant - couple positioning queries and some sloppy movement on both sides at times, but nothing I would highlight as out of the ordinary.

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Milczek
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Re: Penalties

Postby Milczek » Thu Aug 10, 2017 10:13 am

laik wrote:I was surprised that before the games you wanted me to confirm to the camera that if any Polish player will cheat he will not come to the ETC next year [...]


What? It's really offensive...

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Re: Penalties

Postby polux » Thu Aug 10, 2017 11:06 am

Lagerlof wrote:
polux wrote:
2) Furion


That said there is problem with SOME polish player, Furion to not name him. I really do not understand how the judge can permanently be at his table and he never get any penalty. I won't talk about cheating or how he play since I have not played against him so I will only use facts.




Penalty for what?

I was very close to just end the Poland-Swiss game with Furion at 10-10 because they just kept argue and it didn't seem like they could finish the game in a nice manner.

But if Furion is such a cheater, why did the Swiss player move his dragon 1.5" too far in the first turn (and other units after)? Why did he use Martial Dicipline on his terror test?


No no don't take me wrong :D , I don't call Furion a cheater excuse me. I especially wanted to talk about facts because it is pointless to talk about rumors.

As for your judging it was necessary and great. I know that it was not only Furion making mistakes and I do not blame him only for this game. but what I say is==> Even if you were there and cannot say that someone was doing thing worse, the simple fact that you had to be there and mark every position and distance should be a warning that something went wrong.

As for your question Penalty for What: Why did Furion and/or his co-player never get penalty just for finishing too soon or even to require permanent judge and marking? This seems weird to me.

In the end what Razon propose is cool, you could have given both player a penalty. That way one is penalized without reason BUT in the long run the one guilty will have other problem and get more and more penalized.

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Re: Penalties

Postby DanT » Thu Aug 10, 2017 11:35 am

Rince wrote: I can promise you next year he will be as gentle as a lamb.

I was undecided about doing the ETC next year, but I would love to see this so maybe I will go now :)


With what is being said in this thread, I wanted to add something to the referees:

You guys have a really hard job. If you give penalties people are unhappy, if you don't give penalties people are unhappy.
From what I have seen and heard, you did a good job this year.
Perfect? Maybe not, but we're all human, right? I don't envy you your job, and from what I saw you gave everything you could in a difficult task.

Furthermore, quotes like the two below from Lagerlof make me feel like the referees understand the problems, and are trying to find solutions for future years. Perhaps this is something we can work together on as a community.

Good job guys.
Onwards and upwards!

Lagerlof wrote:My main issue with Furion is his temper, warrented or not that behaviour will not go unpunished the next time I am at an ETC.


Lagerlof wrote:Going back on agreements is the biggest issue that I can't find a good solution for. Because if it's word against word the actual placement will always decide the ruling.
The worst game were this happened was a case of very poor sportmanship from the guy who did it, but I'm not gonna write up any names here. The ones involved knows very well who it was and what he did.


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