Penalties

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Reynald Of Châtillon
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Penalties

Postby Reynald Of Châtillon » Tue Aug 08, 2017 8:22 am

Hi everyone,

We wanted to start a thread on the penalties that have been awarded during this year's ETC.

I do not know which teams in total got penalties for cheating, I just know that we Swiss got 6pts deducted to our total, which should be probably one of the largest penalty (if not the one) ever distributed to an ETC team.

I have attended the ETC since 2008 in Modena, I have seen so many cases of cheating, stalling, insulting, usually involving a small circle of teams/players. Even this years, the same teams/players as always went through their games with horrible behaviour and finished their ETC with nothing but a continued stained reputation.

Yet, Switzerland got this severe penalty for "stalling" after the game of our KoE vs. Christopher Mince, which ended 19-1 for Chris in 5 turns, after we agree to give away units that could have been killed during the 6th turn because we did not want to turn this into an unfair advantage. We would have even given away the 20-0 should Chris have asked for it.
The fact that penalties can be awarded only with "one side of a story" is absurd. It promotes stupid situation where you have to make sure you complain to refs after 2 turns in all your games, just in case the game does not finish on time you are sure that you won't be penalised by the opponent complaining on his side.

I don't know how many players did not manage to make one game finish in 6 turns, but we are certainly not the only ones, and we won't be the last.
In our last game Furion stalled, played 4 turns and got away with only a 9-11 defeat, after he had played only 3 turns against the French captain in the previous round. I did not see the same enthusiast from referees in giving away penalties to Poland.

The fact we were awarded this penalty did not change our result by a lot, in fact we don't care because this is only a toy soldiers game in the end.

But the fact that referees awarded us this penalty is a sign that they think we Swiss are cheaters.

This is insulting and disrespectful, end of story.
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Re: Penalties

Postby Lagerlof » Tue Aug 08, 2017 8:49 am

I sat next to that game, and I don't agree Furion was stalling vs Swiss.

They were both in a bad mood and argued about everything, and they both did mistakes and sloppy movement that the other disagreed on and then I or another ref had to step in and help them solve it, which takes alot of time.

Also, no ref believes Swiss were cheating. The penalty was for slow play,
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Re: Penalties

Postby Babnik » Tue Aug 08, 2017 9:17 am

Same sentiment from Luxembourg team.

We found out that White Boy cheated after the game.
He used questing oath to wipe out a thicket beast unit whereas it is applicable only for towering presence unit. On the scenario Hold the Ground, it makes a real difference trust me. We loose 7-13 because he had 1 scoring more than our SE player.

He got a simple warning ....

The polish referee came to us to ask about our tourney keeper data and I replied him I was busy doing it. Then we suffered a 3pt penalty for having put a result on tourney keeper at 19h35... 5mn late?
Last edited by Babnik on Tue Aug 08, 2017 10:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Penalties

Postby Furion » Tue Aug 08, 2017 9:28 am

Lagerlof was there the whole time #-o

Two things about the Swiss player.
1. Plese don't lie about number of turns.
S1 Movement
P1 Movement
S2 Movement
P2 archers charge, lost mage
S3 bsb lost
P3 chariot charges, breaks, pursues
S4 dragon rallies
P4 ER overrun into dragon
S5 Dragon kills ER
P5 I decide not to charge with lord.

In his turn 6 he wouldn't do anything and I would kill BSB + spearmen unit, which is 700 pts difference.
So yeah, I would have preffered to finish the game.

However, that's not the point. The Swiss player was quite a character, went into game with very head-on mindset and no will to cooperate. He tried to push for inches here or there, I didn't bother until the dragon had M8 instead of M7. Anyway. Whatever. We won, Swiss lost, some "gg" and some "wp" were made but not here.

Leaving the Swiss aside, I find it remarkable that the French player mr. Vincent "2 and 1/2 turns" Bernat didn't get any penalties. From what you write the Swiss were penalized for playing 5 turns. We clearly need some guideliness and some ways to determine what is going on. Chess clocks anyone? Or what is the other solution?

As a side note, I'd like to leave a remark about the Swedes. From my perspective 100% of Swedish population are good players and good sportsman. Well done on 2nd place!
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Re: Penalties

Postby kiri » Tue Aug 08, 2017 10:04 am

Totally agree with Reynald of Châtillon.

This year was my 4th ETC and I've never seen so many cheating situations. Just on round 1 I've called the ref like 20 times (and for only 2 tables: Furion and the SE player) with 0 décision against us and still no penalty for Poland, or Furion, which is a shame. The worst is that, as far as I know, all his oponents complained about him, once again without any consequence.

This guy is a cheater and an agressive (in the worst meaning of the word) player who has nothing to do around a table, and specialy at the ETC. The fact he finished the tournament without any pénalty (when he deserved to be ban) is a shame. And now he has the audacy to accusate others of bad behaviour? That's pathetic!

I hope sanctions will be taken against this guy and that next year we will not have to stand this guy.

From à more general point of view, I found that, this year, behaviour at the table was worst than previous years. I think it's important to think about the kind of tournament we want and stop this kind of behaviour now.
Last edited by kiri on Tue Aug 08, 2017 10:27 am, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: Penalties

Postby Reynald Of Châtillon » Tue Aug 08, 2017 10:15 am

Also, no ref believes Swiss were cheating. The penalty was for slow play,


Intentional slowplay is one form of cheating.

Excuse me, but giving 6pts penalty for "slowplaying" a game we lost 1-19 (which was the agreement reached when both players realised they did not have time for the last turn) without even giving us the chance to tell our side of the story is unfair, absurd and disrespectful.

However, that's not the point. The Swiss player was quite a character, went into game with very head-on mindset and no will to cooperate. He tried to push for inches here or there, I didn't bother until the dragon had M8 instead of M7. Anyway. Whatever. We won, Swiss lost, some "gg" and some "wp" were made but not here.


Jerzy... talking about head-on mindset, you should ask yourself why you're the one always involved with games with problems.
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Re: Penalties

Postby Furion » Tue Aug 08, 2017 12:24 pm

I suggest taking to the team players that can speak at least a little english and have passed geometry 1.0 lessons. This would pretty much close every single discussion. And failing to agree on math / geometry of things is my weak spot :(

Jerzy... talking about head-on mindset, you should ask yourself why you're the one always involved with games with problems.

Always is a strong word. But it is true, I am calling a referee often because I want to either (1) end the decision about measurement quickly or (2) confirm on a rule. I have to do this, because people like you then wouldn't quit on topics like "Furion played rule X wrong".

This guy is a cheater and an agressive (in the worst meaning of the word) player who has nothing to do around a table, and specialy at the ETC. The fact he finished the tournament without any pénalty (when he deserved to be ban) is a shame. And now he has the audacy to accusate others of bad behaviour? That's pathetic!

It's pathetic that you can't accept you've lost. And now you try to better yourself by attacking me. I understand that.

As to the very unspecific accusation of cheating, you could just call a judge? Or maybe just tell him, if he was so omnipresent? #-o

Come on guys, we all know how is it gonna be:
Some will post accusations in quantity I am not able to respond to.
Then I'll pass.
The truth is you won't have anything on me, since I play in a way that is bulletproof to your bullshit.

Have a happy summer and see you in a year :*
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Re: Penalties

Postby kiri » Tue Aug 08, 2017 1:12 pm

Furion wrote:I suggest taking to the team players that can speak at least a little english and have passed geometry 1.0 lessons. This would pretty much close every single discussion. And failing to agree on math / geometry of things is my weak spot :(

Jerzy... talking about head-on mindset, you should ask yourself why you're the one always involved with games with problems.

Always is a strong word. But it is true, I am calling a referee often because I want to either (1) end the decision about measurement quickly or (2) confirm on a rule. I have to do this, because people like you then wouldn't quit on topics like "Furion played rule X wrong".

This guy is a cheater and an agressive (in the worst meaning of the word) player who has nothing to do around a table, and specialy at the ETC. The fact he finished the tournament without any pénalty (when he deserved to be ban) is a shame. And now he has the audacy to accusate others of bad behaviour? That's pathetic!

It's pathetic that you can't accept you've lost. And now you try to better yourself by attacking me. I understand that.

As to the very unspecific accusation of cheating, you could just call a judge? Or maybe just tell him, if he was so omnipresent? #-o

Come on guys, we all know how is it gonna be:
Some will post accusations in quantity I am not able to respond to.
Then I'll pass.
The truth is you won't have anything on me, since I play in a way that is bulletproof to your bullshit.

Have a happy summer and see you in a year :*
Furion


We've lost against pretty much all our opponents, you're the only one I call a cheater because you are a cheater. That's it. But your answer is a good demonstration on how agressive and pathetic you are, thanks dude.
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Re: Penalties

Postby Bazzu » Tue Aug 08, 2017 1:38 pm

There should be a clear guidance on penalties which needs to be defined now and not after lists have been submitted.

Stalling is a very fine line especially when loads of arguments pop up.

Regarding cheating I met players that didn t know their own unit characteristics, even one of our guys at one point in time he said ooohhh that unit has multiple wnds 2 vs that unit type and I was like eerrmmm how can you miss that???? also met a sylvan elf that didn t know that pathfinders are ws5, he was playing them ws4 so that means that none from his team knew that as well.

my point is that sometimes, not always, there are innocent mistakes

English is another issue that it leads to more arguments

What really bothers me each year and it should be tackled once and for all is the custom dice issue.
During one of our pairings (after the game ended) one of our players found a die with both a 6 and a symbol.

Would love (and it would be some kind of participation reward) that as a community etc dice are provided and only those dice can be rolled.
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Re: Penalties

Postby laik » Tue Aug 08, 2017 3:40 pm

kiri wrote: Just on round 1 I've called the ref like 20 times (and for only 2 tables: Furion and the SE player)


could you please give some concrete examples on what was the referee called for SE player table? I'd really like to know.
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Re: Penalties

Postby AndersNohr » Tue Aug 08, 2017 4:14 pm

Mayhaps wrong (advantageous) movement trays or moving too far?
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Re: Penalties

Postby kiri » Tue Aug 08, 2017 4:22 pm

laik wrote:
kiri wrote: Just on round 1 I've called the ref like 20 times (and for only 2 tables: Furion and the SE player)


could you please give some concrete examples on what was the referee called for SE player table? I'd really like to know.


You were playing the game so you should remember better than I do right?
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Re: Penalties

Postby laik » Tue Aug 08, 2017 4:30 pm

@Kiri,

Well I was playing the game and nothing has happened - that's why I'm surprised that you wrote some accusations - I think it's higly unfair when they are not real,

So if you have some facts then write them down, if not I would expect some appologies.

What I remember is that I wanted to play 6th round it my opponent didn't and that It was the only time on the tournament I didn't played 6 rounds.
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Re: Penalties

Postby kiri » Tue Aug 08, 2017 5:04 pm

laik wrote:@Kiri,

Well I was playing the game and nothing has happened - that's why I'm surprised that you wrote some accusations - I think it's higly unfair when they are not real,

So if you have some facts then write them down, if not I would expect some appologies.

What I remember is that I wanted to play 6th round it my opponent didn't and that It was the only time on the tournament I didn't played 6 rounds.


I've call the ref 20 times against your team, sorry butI don't have the detail of each intervention.

For the apologies, I hope you're kidding? 3 of our players had their worst game (from far) against your team and now consider the fact to stop ETC because of that...
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Re: Penalties

Postby Rince » Tue Aug 08, 2017 5:15 pm

Sure, sure, bro... We are all cheaters and when France will be organising ETC, 6 out of 8 our players will be instantly banned. For now it's only Furion but they are still considering banning the rest of us.

Guys please... Get real.

Is there any official rule that says a player must be super friendly to his opponent? If not, please end this ridiculous discussion. Calling someone a cheater just cause of his "no mercy" playstyle? Please...
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Re: Penalties

Postby laik » Tue Aug 08, 2017 5:52 pm

@Kiri
Well you brought some serious accousations on me but that's all just false - I've played 18 games on ETC so far and there were never refree interventions because of me.
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Re: Penalties

Postby Hasael » Tue Aug 08, 2017 8:22 pm

Hi there,

I can only agree regarding Furion's case. Just to clarify things before I talk, I'm part of no team, and only went at Salamanca to play my first, and painfull, ESC.

I looked some games during ETC, and especially Vince3310 vs Furion. Honestly, even by taking the game in the middle, what I saw was shocking. I heard of Furion before (not in good), but it's clearly worse than I imagined before. I don't know him, and I have nothing against Poland and the other members of the team (simply 'cause I don't know them and didn't look any of their game), but Furion is, clearly, a cheater.

I saw, like many others, absurd movement abuses, bad actor play fainting to not know a rule (seriously, Furion, the "best" player in the world don't know core rule and need a referee? xD Don't try to convince anybody), calling a ref to play time, again, and again, and again. Then worst of all, accusing his opponent of slow play. Just : LOL. I never, ever, saw such bad sportmanship + cheating in the same person.

This game was even filmed (at least partly), and people seing it live were also chocked, as far as I know. Furion tried, and succeed many time, in abusing during movement phase. Considering what I heard about other teams that play against before France, there are almost always problem with Furion, and even one of his team member said that Furion is horrible (don't remember the right term but this is the idea).
When a large amount of people report cheating from Furion, year after year, there is a reason. I personally don't want to see again this "player" in a tournament even if I didn't play with him, I think it's revealing of the disgust this kind of player make me feel. Something have to be done regarding this case.

PS 1 : I'm saying "him", but of course Furion you can directly take it like a "you". Maybe you're someone really nice in everyday life, honestly I don't know, and I don't care. Your behaviour in game is the worst I saw (and I've seen many cheaters). Even your defending posts here are a proof of your bad behaviour, basically accusing everybody of being bad losers xD At least you're funny.

PS 2 : Before someone say that I accuse Furion because I'm french, I absolutely don't care about his game with Vince, I am no part of this french team (you may know there are a lot of different french teams trying to pretend for ETC each year), and most important there already was 100-60 without this game, so the result of this match was pointless anyway.

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Re: Penalties

Postby Furion » Tue Aug 08, 2017 9:06 pm

Good thing is that this battle was actually filmed, this way at least I get a chance to get rid of pesky crusaders.
People dedicated enough will watch the video.
People who are smart enough will save time and won't do it.
Haters gonna hate, skaters gonna skate.
You're clearly just another French running with a torch. You lost almost 160-0, get over it.
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Re: Penalties

Postby Viruk » Tue Aug 08, 2017 10:32 pm

Maybe people dislike your gaming style Furion because you act like an idiot on forums. And then they project that into your games.

That and all the money you made at the Poland ETC..
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Re: Penalties

Postby Dim » Tue Aug 08, 2017 10:48 pm

Rince wrote:Sure, sure, bro... We are all cheaters and when France will be organising ETC, 6 out of 8 our players will be instantly banned. For now it's only Furion but they are still considering banning the rest of us.

Guys please... Get real.

Is there any official rule that says a player must be super friendly to his opponent? If not, please end this ridiculous discussion. Calling someone a cheater just cause of his "no mercy" playstyle? Please...


We assume the players play intelligently.
Sometimes it happens someone hits the table or player’s hand trembles and that changes a
unit’s position. Sometimes it happens you put your converted model in a weird way just because
it does not fit the other way. We assume the players are intelligent. Players should correct the
position of the unit that manner it actually makes sense. You would not place a model in a way it
sees nothing. The best way to avoid this is to always inform your opponent of the position and
facing of your units (for example: I place my chariot 16” away from your White Lions) and make
sure that he understood and agreed.
Communication is the key but if that fails correct the unit in
a fair way. If that fails, call a judge. Abusing this “rule” (in both ways) will be penalized!


It is actually written in the pack that you are supposed to make agreement about positions of the units. An agreed front charge that becomes a flank charge goes clearly against that part of the pack, for one instance.
I don't know which of the Polish player did that, but I have seen many of these kind of "tricks", already during the warm up and last year ETC. We already reported all of these tricks. I can't understand we can see them again in ETC coming from the same players without penalties.

The funniest thing being us getting a -6 penalty for slow playing a game lost 19-1 (seriously?), when people can get away with "forgetting" an agreement.
I would like to fully understand our penalty.

My greatest concern is that some refs calls encourage bad sportsmanship.

Checking a 1" rule and trying to move an opponent unit outside of the opponent's movement phase is just plain wrong, I am sorry. This is a ruling that should change. You should not get rewarded for not telling right away that you are not happy with a move, and instead keeping it for your own turn.

Forgetting an agreement = lying and cannot be tolerated. The judges have to judge who is the liar in these kind of case, not say "I can't do anything", otherwise it is just way too easy to "forget" things.
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Re: Penalties

Postby eggsPR » Wed Aug 09, 2017 12:31 am

Hi Dim,

The whole story is this, as I told both Titi and other players on the Swiss team.

After the end of day 2, the pairings showed that USA was to play the Swiss. This was great news indeed since we played each other in a friendly scrimmage before the event on the Thursday. Despite our team still being drunk from the night before we still had a great time playing you guys and we still thank you for reaching out to us.

Saturday evening came around and many folks were trying to warn us of slow playing with the Swiss. I couldn't recall if any slow playing happened during our scrimmage as I was still drunk from the night before and couldn't care less. Then I heard about specifics - coincidentally you, with a corner O&G list, only played, what, 4 turns against Danish BH? Then I heard about other things... the Swiss KoE player not finishing his games.

During this conversation we ran into one of the refs, and he also heard of the slow playing by the Swiss. As any concerned captain would do, I asked for a potential solution. And that solution the following:

Since the Swiss didn't finish all their games vs the Danes and it was noted as such, then before the match against USA, there would be a small meeting. So, me, the Swiss Captain, Coco, and Vasillies the ref all agreed that we were ALL going to finished our games, and to consider this meeting as "the warning", and any games that wouldn't finish would result in a penalty, and that both captains would be responsible to communicate this to the players.

Then the round started, and I (USA VC) was paired against an alleged slow player... the KoE player. Nice guy he was, but boy was he slow - never saw someone take 10 minutes to move a unit 4" to the right, or 8m 45s to decie to not declare any charges. It was surprising that I witnessed this all while the ref was watching as well (though the ref was standing behind him, so perhaps he didn't know he was being watched for most of the game).

So, with me trying to play my fastest, and I mean FAST, the game still ended at a 18-2 to me before turn 6. Had we played turn 6 I'd have tabled him with a 20-0. Was a very frustrating game.

Side note: Coco was an absolute gentleman in our match. He was cordial, provided information to us on how the rounds were going and didn't speak a lick of French outside of timeouts. Thanks man.

But, I took lap times of the match, and while he took much longer in his turns, most of my turn's time was him deciding to dispel a spell (which, again, the ref witnessed). So, the ref came back around as I was packing up after the 18-2 was submitted and asked if we got 6 turns. I replied no and we proceeded to computer area to go over the lap times. After explaining everything about the captains meeting it was clear that something was going to be done about it. But Vasilles was at lunch and all the other refs needed to confirm that this meeting took place.

After 10 minutes, Vasillies came back, then I was called up front and explained the above to all 4 refs, with refs both confirming the slow playing (intentional or not) and the captains meeting. After explaining, they told me to leave and they would discuss and they would call me if they needed anything else. They never called me back up.

Then, as everyone saw, my 18-2 was converted to a 19-1, then back to a 18-2, then to a 19-1.

After that, we were on to playing France round 6. Before those pairings poor Xavier ran up to me and was telling me to take back the 6 point penalty which I knew nothing about. I knew about the 19-1 only through tourneykeeper.

And that's it, really.

Am I salty that I didn't just get my deserved 20-0 against Swiss KoE? A little. Am I annoyed that the Swiss have the nerve to complain that they slow playing resulting in a penalty after they received a warning that if they slow played they'd receive a penalty? Yes deffo. Like... the refs told you to not play slow before game. What else do you need to just admit you were wrong and move on, videotaped games?

Heh, if I'd had gotten that 1 point round 5 (20-0 instead of 19-1), USA would have podiumed at 3rd place. Also, the Danes would have had similar outcomes if their Swiss has they finished their games round 4, and that could have allowed them to easily podium over USA and Russia. Does anybody see a pattern here? Nobody is saying that the slow playing was intended with malice, but after speaking with the Swiss team members on the Sunday night drink session, they admitted that some of their players WERE SLOW PLAYERS, yourself included Dim. You're a cool dude but you are slow as mollasses and I don't think it's intentional - you just think alot.

In any case, all this drama and it's funny that the Swiss are least affected by it - they would've jumped Turkey for 9th with 6 more points.

Anyway, perhaps we can try to make this post positive with some potential solutions:

A) more enforcement of penalties (Swiss probably shouldn't have gotten the only slow playing penalty, but if they were made as an example, then hopefully the ends will justify the means in 2018)

B) teams should focus on picking team members capable of thinking fast, and realise that playing slow is not a valid strategy to not lose a losing match (take it like a man and move on).

C) make rounds last even longer (with 2 games/day, make the rounds 4 hours)

D) chess clocks or otherwise

E) more refs (1 per table row)


-Chris
2012 Team Ireland
2013 Team Ireland
2014 Team Wales
2015 Team USA
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Re: Penalties

Postby Furion » Wed Aug 09, 2017 7:56 am

Viruk wrote:Maybe people dislike your gaming style Furion because you act like an idiot on forums. And then they project that into your games.

That and all the money you made at the Poland ETC..

It's all a vicious circle.
With the unfortunate ETC of 2012 I was mainly the judge. From organising stuff I:
1. organised rosters
2. Wrote timetable and rulespack
3. Shared info with captains
4. Didn't ever handle the money.

All of the other stuff was handled by Marek "Buszman".
Please note that it doesn't mean he stole anything - I for one have never seen the incomes / expenses sheet so it would be unwise to make a call. Not revealing the financials and general veil around this issue caused tension, even before event on chairmen - orga line.

And here, once again we have lots of vendetta seekers putting their eyes on me. And I am as defenseless to convince you as you are to seek justice, since neither of us has access to the financials. Yet, every single year there are a bunch of vendetta persons spreading the lies.

Moral of the story is, that yes - I was involved and linked to the ETC. I didnt do finances but most think I did. How can I fight those phantoms?

For both ETC 2012 and DMP 2012 (Polish championships which took place 1 week before) I received a refund of my costs, which ended in smth like 205 eur (travel expenses around 120 eur, food 30 eur, hotels 55 eur).

I have no problem in looking in the mirror. I have no problem with looking every single one of you in the eyes and to say that again. Those accusations are painful, but I have learned to live with the stigma.

I guess it's another victory you can take over Furion.
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Re: Penalties

Postby el rey » Wed Aug 09, 2017 10:57 am

The funniest thing being us getting a -6 penalty for slow playing a game lost 19-1 (seriously?), when people can get away with "forgetting" an agreement.


It has only some to do with that game, but also games that happened before that. There had been other teams that complain about the same guy, which was the guideline the refs made clear before the event. I played your KoE in Herford and he was slow there too. So I think the penalty is on the mark. However other players should probably had have the same penalty, but if their opponents didn't make the refs award of this, they can not applied it. 1 time is not enough, there needs to be more than 1 real complain.

As for Furion, from what I have seen, he plays hard, but within the rules. When you know the game and rules well and compete on the highest level, you meet a lot of people who gets the rules wrong. Which you constantly have to point out to them, which for them can be frustrating(as it can for you), so getting a judge to tell the opponent your are right, so you do not need to discuss all the rules is a good option. Furions social skills/behaviour isn't great and that doesn't help him, but it does not make him a cheater either. So unless people have some concrete prof of this, I think they should stop the which hunt. [-X
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Re: Penalties

Postby Kalerith » Wed Aug 09, 2017 11:05 am

Personally I dont mind the though gamer attitude as you (Furion) speak of earlier. But I har some really bad stuff about Furion.
I am not going to make accusations, just recount what I heard.
Pretty much everyone but Furion (and maybe the ref) tells the same story (at least from the people I spoke to): Furion slowplayed Vince, not the other way around. And mind you getting ref a lot is also a way of slow playing.

I havent played Vince myselves, but my team captain has, and he tells me that Vince is a super clean player, no bullshit.
So to be quite honest I am more obliged to believe the people that tells that Furion slowplayed Vince.

But what I would like to hear is what excactly caused this massive delay? I dont think I could play a game that slow that I only got 2,5 turns in 3 hours if I tried. I would like to know both sides of the story here.

The most weird thing I heard is that Furion "blackmailed" Vince into giving him 15-5 instead of calculating the game so his team would not suffer the 2 point penalty, but Vince would fall behind Furion in the individual standing.

I dont know what happened, but it would be interesting to hear all sides of the story. Because the "neutral" side doesnt paint a pretty picture for Furion, and I find that to be very unfair for him and the polish side if it actually is the case that they are unjustly accused of all this bad behaviour.

Karl-Erik
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Re: Penalties

Postby vince3310 » Wed Aug 09, 2017 11:28 am

Hi all,

I would like to share with you a game I had in ETC.

I played against Furion from team Poland, and it was just the WORST game of my life.
We played 3h30 (3h for him and 30min for me), we only did 3 turns and the referees stayed at our table for about 3h...

So, to explain a little more...
He played ~3 hours, with a HE list (shoot/magic) against a VC list based on infantery. Do you think it is normal to do only 3 turns without penalties?
Do you think it is normal that he ask stalling penalties against me? I first thought it was a joke, but not at all...

Do you think it is normal to have referees during 3 hours at our table without any penalties?
Do you think it is normal to threaten your opponent without penalties?

And finally, at the end of turn 3, a referee gives me this choice as there is no more time remaining : or loosing 5-15 or continue the game and get penalties for my team...
When he asks that, we are on a 10-10 on points + secondary objective for me, so 13-07 for me!! Is it normal that I was "forced" to loose (by the way we were already capped anyway on this round) ?

During his turn, a mistake of referee allows him to save an important unit with an absolutely forbidden movement. Then, when they realized their mistake (humans do mistakes, no problem on that), they said that we won't correct it and absolutely no solution was proposed to me to equilibrate this important error…The mistake was done during his movement phase and we were (~1H later) in the end of his shooting phase…of the same turn...is this a normal situation and issue resolution ?

Is it normal that one of the referees always agreed with him? Is it normal to be forced to call another referee to have an objective answer which was most of the time an opposite answer to the first referee?

Last point...

Someone can explain me why, after this horrible game, 3 Polish players came to see me to tell me that they are sorry for what happened and that they know very well that furion is an horrible opponent...?
Do you think it is normal?

Now, is winning the most important factor our community wants to have? What about fairplay and pleasure to play?
So, the community has to take a decision. Will stalling/cheating and akward behavior be the way to win ETC?

Personally I don’t think so.

Vincent
2012 : France team captain & OG player
2016 : France team VC player
2017 : France team captain & VC player

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Re: Penalties

Postby Lagerlof » Wed Aug 09, 2017 12:01 pm

Kalerith wrote:
The most weird thing I heard is that Furion "blackmailed" Vince into giving him 15-5 instead of calculating the game so his team would not suffer the 2 point penalty, but Vince would fall behind Furion in the individual standing.


Karl-Erik
Norway O&G player Athens (16) and Salamanca (17)


That's not true. I really wonder where are these "rumors" come from.

Their game was the last ones still playing, and Furion had repeatedly told us that his opponent was playing slow. Not the other way around.

Sure the refs had been there alot of times, but that's what happens when you have arguments. It's both parties fault.

But when every other game was done, I was standing next to their table and they were pretty much just arguing about how many turns they were gonna play. Furions teammate came up and said that they have capped already regardless of their result in that game. So I asked if they could just end their game and calculate.

Furion wanted to finish the game and get the BP he would with a win. But his opponent didn't wanna shake on 15-5.

After some discussion I said that they would get a penalty for late result submission (Not Poland, since they were the ones complaining about opponent playing slow) and it ended in me saying that if he can accept the 15-5 I would let them report the result without giving them the penalty for late results and he agreed to it.

So if you wanna blame anyone you should blame me, I'm not all too happy about how I handled it but it was the easiest way out.

The alternative would be that they finished even turns, and then we (refs) would agree on a BP shift in the game for what might have happened in the rest of the turns. And the opposing team would get a slow play penalty as well.

So end result might not have been that different.
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Re: Penalties

Postby el rey » Wed Aug 09, 2017 12:17 pm

Lagerlof, good to hear what happened, because I heard all kind of weird stuff where people claimed Furion blackmail his opponent and his team. Which I found hard to believe. However if the time is up, I find it weird the result is just not the result at the time. Because there where other games played that weren't finish because of a slow player, but no "what would happen if we played to the end" where done and the scores where just how it looked now. So it seem to be different treatment of the players, which is not good.
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ETC 2006 (Lizardmen), ETC 2007 (Brets), ETC 2008(Lizardmen),ETC 2009 (Daemons),
ETC 2010 (Vampires), ETC 2011 (Warrior of Chaos & AR member), ETC 2012 (Ogre & AR member), ETC 2013 (Ogre, AR member & FAQ member), ETC 2014 (Skaven, spokesperson & AR member), ETC 2015 (Daemons & spokesperson). ETC 2016+2017 (Coach)
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Re: Penalties

Postby Rince » Wed Aug 09, 2017 12:24 pm

vince3310 wrote:
Someone can explain me why, after this horrible game, 3 Polish players came to see me to tell me that they are sorry for what happened and that they know very well that furion is an horrible opponent...?
Do you think it is normal?

Now, is winning the most important factor our community wants to have? What about fairplay and pleasure to play?
So, the community has to take a decision. Will stalling/cheating and akward behavior be the way to win ETC?

Personally I don’t think so.

Vincent


Yes, I actually think it's normal that someone comes to you to say sorry for his teammate behaviour. You really think we won because stalling/cheating? On the other hand, when I came to you, you said "congratulations for winning the ETC", then when I wanted to shake hands, you refused, saying that it was an irony. You think that's normal? Maybe you guys should think about your own behaviour first, hmm? Is it normal that Emilie wanted to beat up Furion on the parking lot after the event? Is it normal that you want to ban 6/8 of our players for your French tournaments, including ETC? Based on what? Cause to be honest, it's actually your player who got the official warning playing against us. Calling our whole team cheaters is normal? just like that? You guys lost on 7 tables, fair and square. Think about other ways to handle your frustration please. I was super nice to you, I talked with your players and Emilie after the battles, I've tried to come up with any reasonable solution to encourage our relations but you were just so frustrated and angry... We are not monsters. Everyone likes us. We made a lot of friends over the past few years. Germany, USA, Czech, Russia... We all met at polish tournaments, we are friends. You think its because we are cheaters and each of us acts like Furion behind the table?

Funny thing, you actually accused Furion of stalling... A player who wanted to score 110+ points on this tournament no matter what...
Last edited by Rince on Wed Aug 09, 2017 1:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Penalties

Postby Lagerlof » Wed Aug 09, 2017 12:36 pm

el rey wrote:Lagerlof, good to hear what happened, because I heard all kind of weird stuff where people claimed Furion blackmail his opponent and his team. Which I found hard to believe. However if the time is up, I find it weird the result is just not the result at the time. Because there where other games played that weren't finish because of a slow player, but no "what would happen if we played to the end" where done and the scores where just how it looked now. So it seem to be different treatment of the players, which is not good.


There was one game changed from 18-2 to 19-1 for the same reason.

Also one of the Swedish games almost got the same treatment but they also capped before the game finished and then the opponent asked to not play his 6th turn and the Swedish captain agreed because they had already capped, otherwise it would probably have been a forced play-to-the-end and no penalties for Swedish team for late result.

So same problem, different solutions for different games. It felt quite rare, and every situation is unique. So it's hard to treat everything the same. Overall there were alot less issues this year compared to last year, atleast IMO.

Going back on agreements is the biggest issue that I can't find a good solution for. Because if it's word against word the actual placement will always decide the ruling.

The worst game were this happened was a case of very poor sportmanship from the guy who did it, but I'm not gonna write up any names here. The ones involved knows very well who it was and what he did.
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Re: Penalties

Postby AndersNohr » Wed Aug 09, 2017 1:51 pm

Well. The Danish HbE seems to have had one of his worst games ever against furion as well. If not the worst

Thing is, I think the Poles were probably best this year, so you'd think they deserved to win.

Being probably the best, you'd also think it'd be possible to win, without aggravating players on just about every single opponent team.

Things such as having wrong (advantageously small) movement trays, often moving too far, consistently not respecting the 1" rule are bad enough. Done purposefully, it is cheating.
Topping it off with a very hostile atmosphere (from the sound of things) naturally pis.ses people off.


Anyway, I think the best team won. It's a pity it had to be like that.
Also, I hope it won't be necessary with that style to win in the coming years.

P.s. I've been to the etc since 2010 and this is the first year I've experienced Poland getting this kind of reputation. Hope it's a one off.

(btw, my own polish opponent played fairly and probably better than me)
ISIS etc.:
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