ETC 2017 Rules and Penalties (everyone please read!!)

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ETC 2017 Rules and Penalties (everyone please read!!)

Postby Lagerlof » Fri Jul 28, 2017 10:33 pm

Introduction
Last year in Athens there were a lot of issues with bad behaviour, slow play, angle shooting and straight out cheating during the games. This document will serve as guidelines to all players, captains and judges regarding what is allowed to do during the games and what kind of penalties you can expect if you don’t follow it.
The goal here is that we, the judges, are going to be a lot stricter towards the players that can’t play the game correct and in a way that is fair for all parties involved. Everyone has spent a lot of time, money and energy to attend this event and no one should feel like they have been robbed of the experience afterwards.
The rules and guidelines in the Tournament Rules Pack are also in effect.

Communication

Clear communication is the way to prevent disputes in between you and your opponent:
• Every action needs a visual or vocal confirmation from the opponent.
• You should agree with your opponent on distances between units before it gets crucial (i.e. before declaring a charge, it is a good idea to measure what the distance is between the two units).
• You should agree on the position and facing of your units (i.e. if I place my unit like this it is out of line of sight of your unit / I place my model facing your unit, but due to its massive axe it needs to be standing differently);
• You should make sure your opponent understands the action you are performing.

Communication is key!

Unsporting conduct
Unsporting conduct will not be tolerated at any time. Tournament participants must behave in a polite and respectful manner. Unsporting conduct includes, but is not limited to:
• Engaging in behaviour that could reasonably be expected to create a feeling of being harassed, bullied, or stalked.
• Arguing with, acting belligerently toward, or insulting tournament officials, players, captains or spectators.
• Violating the personal privacy or safety of any participant, including spectators and staff.
• Failing to follow the instructions of a judge.

Slow play / Stalling
There should be enough time for everyone to complete their games. But sometimes the games take too long, there might be a lot of arguments or some other unforeseen event that takes up the time, and that is fine.
But not finishing your games should be rare. If you bring a list with an abundance of single models or just a lot of models in general you need to adapt to the list that you have brought. It’s not an excuse to not finish your games.
If you feel that your opponent is playing slow, whether it’s on purpose or not, you need to notify your captain and/or a judge as soon as possible. The earlier you let us know, the better. You can of course ask your opponent politely to speed up first.
We will try to sit at the table and inspect the game if anyone is accused of being slow or stalling.

Anyone accused of this will be written down so all the judges are aware of the slow player(s), and you will receive a warning that if you are accused of playing slow a second time during the tournament your team will receive a -10 BP penalty to their final primary score.
Note that being accused two times for slow play will not automatically be grounds for a penalty, it will be given on a case-by-case by the judges. So no one will be able to give opponents penalties by accusing someone of slow play without reason.

Cheating/Angle shooting

Making mistakes are normal, and honestly we believe that most games are played with some degree of mistakes.
The difference between a mistake, angle shooting and cheating is however a very thin line.

During this ETC we will implement the following rule:

• If you during the course of the six games make any kind of mistake that is in your own favour twice, your team will be penalized by 10 BP to their final scores.

This rule is mainly aimed towards the rules and special rules of the army you are playing, since you should know them without your opponent looking something up afterwards and realizing you said it worked differently.
For the general rules there are 2 scenarios. A) You agree on how it works without looking it up or asking a judge. B) One of the players say “This is how it works, I’m positive!”
If you both agree on something that’s fine. But if one players claims he knows how a rule works, he takes full responsibility for that. In this case, if that player was wrong, he will receive the first and only warning before his team gets a penalty for cheating/angle shooting.
Examples: Forgetting or not mentioning you have flaming attacks, forgetting swiftstride during an overrun/pursue/fail charge to lower the probabilities of moving too far. Switching between Drunk and Sober on Drunkard units. Playing with quick to fire instead of unwieldly. Every situation where the player that forgot or did a mistake benefits from it will be treated as angle shooting.

Side note: We are very aware that not everyone takes this as seriously as others. The main goal here is to have fun and enjoy the weekend. We will not punish people for making simple mistakes, to differentiate between the more and less serious mistakes will be the job of the judges.

Judges
Every player will respect the decisions made by a judge. If you don’t agree with their decisions, which of course you are allowed to do (even we can make mistakes), you inform your captain or a judge and the head judges will talk about it and make a final decision on the matter. This decision however is final. Any continued arguments about it can and will result in a -10 BP penalty for your team.


Dice, ongoing effects and other abilities
All dice that are not on the green mat of the table (or whatever the surface is) have to be re-rolled.
A die should never be used to mark wounds taken by a unit, as this can easily fall off or be removed by mistake. Use rings or other objects instead.
Effects and abilities, like sober/drunk or magic effects like Word of Iron or Guiding Light should always be marked on the affected unit with a card or piece of paper that represents the ability or spell.
Unit spacing and ranges
Maintaining a legal unit spacing between units is the responsibility of the person moving the units, so often the active player. You are responsible for the position of all your units at all time. This means that if person B sees, during his charge phase, that player A has two units standing too close to each other he can ask the player or a judge to separate the units so that there is 1” between them. This can lead to a new charge being possible for player B, that player A thought was impossible.
The same logic applies for ranges such as Hold Your Ground. Agreeing on that “these two units are within 12” “ from each other does not work. Your units, your responsibility. If a judge is asked to the table and the distance is more than 12” that is most likely the only call we can make, that it is more than 12”. So measure everything and make sure your units are placed legally.
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Re: ETC 2017 Rules and Penalties (everyone please read!!)

Postby Lagerlof » Fri Jul 28, 2017 10:35 pm

The formatting is perhaps a bit wierd.

But please, if you have any questions or things you want to add or remove here please let me know.

I will try to print a few of these and put on the tables before the first game, the goal is that everyone should know about this to avoid any unneccesary arguments.
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Re: ETC 2017 Rules and Penalties (everyone please read!!)

Postby Chris Legg » Sat Jul 29, 2017 12:34 pm

These all seem very reasonable and fair.

Would it be possible to have some firm and specific rules on spectators around the tables? Some countries are renowned for crowding the tables during games and it would be helpful to know in advance what is and isn't acceptable in this regard.
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Re: ETC 2017 Rules and Penalties (everyone please read!!)

Postby Lagerlof » Sat Jul 29, 2017 2:40 pm

Chris Legg wrote:These all seem very reasonable and fair.

Would it be possible to have some firm and specific rules on spectators around the tables? Some countries are renowned for crowding the tables during games and it would be helpful to know in advance what is and isn't acceptable in this regard.


Perfect.

spectators
During the ETC there are alot of people that watch others play, including of course players that are finished with their own games. Everyone is welcome to spectate a game, but each player has the right to play their game in peace. So always respect the people playing the game, if they ask you to leave you have to leave them alone.

Any communication around the table should always be in english. You are free to ask questions about the game, what turn it is and how the game is going. But you are not allowed to interfer or remind people about rules, or give any tips or hints of any kind. If you as a spectator spot a mistake done in a game, talk to the captain or a judge.
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Re: ETC 2017 Rules and Penalties (everyone please read!!)

Postby Lagerlof » Sat Jul 29, 2017 2:41 pm

Is that good? Anything else?
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Re: ETC 2017 Rules and Penalties (everyone please read!!)

Postby mike newman » Sat Jul 29, 2017 6:07 pm

Lagerlof wrote:. But you are not allowed to interfer or remind people about rules, or give any tips or hints of any kind. If you as a spectator spot a mistake done in a game, talk to the captain or a judge.



Any guidance for if a player disobeys this?

Of the same team?
Of an unrelated team?
A spectator?
A spectator in a foreign language?

(I appreciate these get harder to police as we go down the list)
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Re: ETC 2017 Rules and Penalties (everyone please read!!)

Postby Lagerlof » Sat Jul 29, 2017 6:26 pm

mike newman wrote:
Lagerlof wrote:. But you are not allowed to interfer or remind people about rules, or give any tips or hints of any kind. If you as a spectator spot a mistake done in a game, talk to the captain or a judge.



Any guidance for if a player disobeys this?

Of the same team?
Of an unrelated team?
A spectator?
A spectator in a foreign language?

(I appreciate these get harder to police as we go down the list)


Any ideas? Always feels wierd to punish players for things others do. Not sure how to control it ^^
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Re: ETC 2017 Rules and Penalties (everyone please read!!)

Postby mike newman » Sun Jul 30, 2017 8:41 pm

I completely agree

Especially in the case of Unasked for comments from spectators

I think the refs probably need to use their common sense and look at each incident separately.

Unsolicited isolated comments from unassociated can then be let off.

Where as comments from coaches can be punished properly.

Repeat offences can come with escalating penalty sizes
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Re: ETC 2017 Rules and Penalties (everyone please read!!)

Postby alfika » Sun Jul 30, 2017 11:26 pm

Unacceptable comments by spectators should be followed by the players to ask them to leave the table.

If someone does this repeatedly I guess they can be forbidden to stay close to tables or be asked to leave the whole event.
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Re: ETC 2017 Rules and Penalties (everyone please read!!)

Postby Amazing Slug » Mon Jul 31, 2017 10:13 am

Lagerlof wrote:• You should agree with your opponent on distances between units before it gets crucial (i.e. before declaring a charge, it is a good idea to measure what the distance is between the two units).

Yeah this is good, we've always done this. Like say "I move this unit here, it's within 12” of general, ok?" and quickly proceed to next-


Lagerlof wrote:Agreeing on that “these two units are within 12” “ from each other does not work.


:shock:
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Re: ETC 2017 Rules and Penalties (everyone please read!!)

Postby Lagerlof » Mon Jul 31, 2017 11:56 am

Amazing Slug wrote:
Lagerlof wrote:• You should agree with your opponent on distances between units before it gets crucial (i.e. before declaring a charge, it is a good idea to measure what the distance is between the two units).

Yeah this is good, we've always done this. Like say "I move this unit here, it's within 12” of general, ok?" and quickly proceed to next-


Lagerlof wrote:Agreeing on that “these two units are within 12” “ from each other does not work.


:shock:


And then when it's time for a break/panic test, and judges are called and the distance isn't 12"? It's 12.1".

What do we do then? The only thing we can, we say it's not within 12". So agreeing that something is within 12" does not work if the other player suddenly starts disagreeing with you in the next player turn.

We can only make calls based on the actual positioning of units, not on what players agreed on during the movement.
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Re: ETC 2017 Rules and Penalties (everyone please read!!)

Postby Chosen of Sigmar » Mon Jul 31, 2017 12:15 pm

Lagerlof wrote:...
And then when it's time for a break/panic test, and judges are called and the distance isn't 12"? It's 12.1".

What do we do then? The only thing we can, we say it's not within 12". So agreeing that something is within 12" does not work if the other player suddenly starts disagreeing with you in the next player turn.

We can only make calls based on the actual positioning of units, not on what players agreed on during the movement.


Yeah, those are the guys you love to meet on the ETC (Sracasm intended). I hope we (Team Belgium) don't meet up with any of them. We love the game. We even love challenge of the ETC. But we detest people who come back on 'agreements'. Personally, I "hate" (strong word but OK) players that let you measure out a line of sight arc with a template and a tape measure and then take a laser in their turn to come back on the measurement you just 'agreed' on. If you have the laser: just tell me before I start to do my "course of Geometry"...

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Re: ETC 2017 Rules and Penalties (everyone please read!!)

Postby Wilhelm Grøfte » Mon Jul 31, 2017 1:28 pm

A really good post Lagerloft, I think it gives you (the judges) a much better position to handle problems.

I would like to add one thing though - Be confident and use your judgement in the specific situation, dont be bound by this text it is your guideline not your rules.

We have put our trust in you as judges, and sometimes we need you to make hard decisions, I know that it is a heavy task to punish players and teams and thus directly influence the end results of the tournament but for the sake of the many we really need you to crack down on the few bad apples.

I dont mind honest mistakes (i make them my selves) but when you see players not playing in the spirit of the game you have to step in quickly.

Hope this document will result in a "cleaner" and more fun ETC and I hope the incidents that are bound to happen will not be concentrated on a few teams like last year.
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Re: ETC 2017 Rules and Penalties (everyone please read!!)

Postby Amazing Slug » Mon Jul 31, 2017 2:57 pm

Lagerlof wrote:We can only make calls based on the actual positioning of units, not on what players agreed on during the movement.


Sure. But why write this then?

• You should agree with your opponent on distances between units before it gets crucial (i.e. before declaring a charge, it is a good idea to measure what the distance is between the two units).
• You should agree on the position and facing of your units (i.e. if I place my unit like this it is out of line of sight of your unit / I place my model facing your unit, but due to its massive axe it needs to be standing differently);

It's misleading to encourage agreements like this if they have no real worth when push comes to shove. At least add something like "however, these agreements are ignored if a judge is called. Only actual positions matter".
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Re: ETC 2017 Rules and Penalties (everyone please read!!)

Postby Lagerlof » Mon Jul 31, 2017 10:40 pm

Amazing Slug wrote:
Lagerlof wrote:We can only make calls based on the actual positioning of units, not on what players agreed on during the movement.


Sure. But why write this then?

• You should agree with your opponent on distances between units before it gets crucial (i.e. before declaring a charge, it is a good idea to measure what the distance is between the two units).
• You should agree on the position and facing of your units (i.e. if I place my unit like this it is out of line of sight of your unit / I place my model facing your unit, but due to its massive axe it needs to be standing differently);

It's misleading to encourage agreements like this if they have no real worth when push comes to shove. At least add something like "however, these agreements are ignored if a judge is called. Only actual positions matter".



I copied it from the tournament rulespack. The part 2nd bullet point should not be there, fully agree.

But everyone has to use their judgement, what kind of player are you facing? Most of them are decent guys, but the few that will destroy you because of that 1 mm is the ones we have to base the rules on. Sadly.

Wilhelm Grøfte wrote:A really good post Lagerloft, I think it gives you (the judges) a much better position to handle problems.

I would like to add one thing though - Be confident and use your judgement in the specific situation, dont be bound by this text it is your guideline not your rules.

We have put our trust in you as judges, and sometimes we need you to make hard decisions, I know that it is a heavy task to punish players and teams and thus directly influence the end results of the tournament but for the sake of the many we really need you to crack down on the few bad apples.

I dont mind honest mistakes (i make them my selves) but when you see players not playing in the spirit of the game you have to step in quickly.

Hope this document will result in a "cleaner" and more fun ETC and I hope the incidents that are bound to happen will not be concentrated on a few teams like last year.


I hope so to. I will do my best to keep an eye out during game one and keep track of those who deserve it.
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Re: ETC 2017 Rules and Penalties (everyone please read!!)

Postby [AUT]ThEjOkEr » Tue Aug 01, 2017 12:55 pm

Wilhelm Grøfte wrote:A really good post Lagerloft, I think it gives you (the judges) a much better position to handle problems.

I would like to add one thing though - Be confident and use your judgement in the specific situation, dont be bound by this text it is your guideline not your rules.

We have put our trust in you as judges, and sometimes we need you to make hard decisions, I know that it is a heavy task to punish players and teams and thus directly influence the end results of the tournament but for the sake of the many we really need you to crack down on the few bad apples.

I dont mind honest mistakes (i make them my selves) but when you see players not playing in the spirit of the game you have to step in quickly.

Hope this document will result in a "cleaner" and more fun ETC and I hope the incidents that are bound to happen will not be concentrated on a few teams like last year.


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Re: ETC 2017 Rules and Penalties (everyone please read!!)

Postby orion 76 » Mon Aug 07, 2017 7:46 pm

Cheats will be cheats. I think it is time to start taking names down and perhaps consider banning certain offenders from coming to the ETC for one year... some of the attitudes were really poor:


- There was a player in the ESC who was deducted 2 points for cheating, then he was caught cheating once more in the team event by a referee. Why allow this person to come back next year??

- There was another player who would agree with his opponents when they were running low on time (to speed up the game) that certain charges were a front without actually checking, then calling the referee after if he thought there was a chance that they were a flank.

- One certain player needed a referee with him for entire games (wtf??).

- There was a team that had multiple offenders but seemed to go unnoticed since they were playing the bottom tables.



They know who they are (and so do many others), so I wont name any names. But I think its time to start finger-pointing and taking action.
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Re: ETC 2017 Rules and Penalties (everyone please read!!)

Postby Chosen of Sigmar » Mon Aug 07, 2017 9:19 pm

orion 76 wrote:Cheats will be cheats. I think it is time to start taking names down and perhaps consider banning certain offenders from coming to the ETC for one year... some of the attitudes were really poor:


- There was a player in the ESC who was deducted 2 points for cheating, then he was caught cheating once more in the team event by a referee. Why allow this person to come back next year??

- There was another player who would agree with his opponents when they were running low on time (to speed up the game) that certain charges were a front without actually checking, then calling the referee after if he thought there was a chance that they were a flank.

- One certain player needed a referee with him for entire games (wtf??).

- There was a team that had multiple offenders but seemed to go unnoticed since they were playing the bottom tables.



They know who they are (and so do many others), so I wont name any names. But I think its time to start finger-pointing and taking action.


Second that! Actions need to be taken or this will continue. The purpose of the ETC must be first to get the players from different countries together to enjoy their hobby in a competitive, honest and friendly atmosphere!
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Re: ETC 2017 Rules and Penalties (everyone please read!!)

Postby slivek » Mon Aug 07, 2017 11:47 pm

First of all- before you bring the torches please make sure that one truly did something wrong.
For example I think this is different that sometimes needs ref standing next to his table for whole game because there is high risk of stalling other cheating (quite a few players asked for that) and that someone asked for ref multiple times because he had difficult situations or because he on his own wanted to be sure whether what he is doing is legal.
On this last case I think that we have to amend tournament pack or we are getting to ridiculous situations where ref is called many times despite player calling him shows all signs of intent to end the game on time. But as of now - unless this is case of stalling - it was nothing wrong to call ref to be sure whether your interpretation is right. Although indeed taking this into extreme is ridiculous.
Another example are teams ending on lower tables. Refs tried to be everywhere and every table was treated same. If there would be calls from last table on last round that someone might be cheating or shows unsporting behaviour it wouldn't be ignored.

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Re: ETC 2017 Rules and Penalties (everyone please read!!)

Postby kiri » Tue Aug 08, 2017 10:56 am

orion 76 wrote:Cheats will be cheats. I think it is time to start taking names down and perhaps consider banning certain offenders from coming to the ETC for one year... some of the attitudes were really poor:


- There was a player in the ESC who was deducted 2 points for cheating, then he was caught cheating once more in the team event by a referee. Why allow this person to come back next year??

- There was another player who would agree with his opponents when they were running low on time (to speed up the game) that certain charges were a front without actually checking, then calling the referee after if he thought there was a chance that they were a flank.

- One certain player needed a referee with him for entire games (wtf??).

- There was a team that had multiple offenders but seemed to go unnoticed since they were playing the bottom tables.



They know who they are (and so do many others), so I wont name any names. But I think its time to start finger-pointing and taking action.


Agree with that!

I've seen some unceptable behaviour which need now a clear sanction. Orherwhise I'm afraid that the atmosphere around the ETC will be worst and worst. To be honest we already reached the point where several players of the team are not sure to be there next year, because of some of their oponents behaviour!!
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Re: ETC 2017 Rules and Penalties (everyone please read!!)

Postby KeyserSoze » Thu Aug 10, 2017 4:35 pm

Seems like we need some drastic measures instead of going down the "please behave" road.
I try to do my best but sone people act like 15y old spoiled kids and make me look like a dlck to the ones that are or feel the actual victims.
It's not that I put my ego in front of that, but this is becoming more unpleasant for everyone.
Anyways, I have some proposals ready for next ref pack.

As a last note from me, for what it's worth I deeply apologize to any person that felt we treated him unfairly.
I think I've proved already how much I love this game, ans ita improvement in every aspect is my sole axis around which I try to work.

I honestly promise to improve my performance and guide accordingly the rest of the team.

Take care and enjoy the game.
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Re: ETC 2017 Rules and Penalties (everyone please read!!)

Postby Babnik » Sat Aug 12, 2017 5:53 pm

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Regarding the rules, would be wise to specify that for both ESC and ETC, list and army rules must be in English.
Playing with a non English speaking is fine as it is part of international experience but trying to understand a roster and army rules in a langage we don't understand is really a waste of time...
Especially when we start 3h late and the referee urge us to finish our game ASAP [-X
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Re: ETC 2017 Rules and Penalties (everyone please read!!)

Postby Bazzu » Mon Aug 14, 2017 4:45 pm

the chairmen or whoever runs the show should push for a good deal (it already is good) with lone wolf development and all are forced to use it to provide legal rosters, i believe the below would be quite clear for everyone to understand

4500 Pts - Sylvan Elves Roster -

Total Roster Cost: 4499

Lords of the Forest (1#, 608 pts)
1 Forest Prince, 258 pts = (base cost 0 + Forest Prince 220 + Long Bow 6 + Elven Cloak 16 + Shield 10 + Perforating Tip 6)
1 Giant Sword, 120 pts
1 Helm of the Wild Hunt, 40 pts
1 Divine Icon, 40 pts
1 Wild Hunter, 70 pts
1 Elven Horse, 80 pts

Lords of the Forest (1#, 349 pts)
1 Chieftain, 204 pts = (base cost 0 + Battle Standard Bearer 50 + Chieftain 150 + Long Bow 4)
1 Sacred Seeds, 70 pts
1 Pathfinder, 75 pts

Druid (1#, 490 pts)
1 Druid, 390 pts = (base cost 170 + Wizard Master 70) + Learned Spells x4 150
1 Book of Arcane Power, 100 pts

Dryads (8#, 170 pts)
8 Dryads, 170 pts = 8 * 24 (base cost 24) + Base Cost Adjustment -22

Dryads (10#, 238 pts)
9 Dryads, 194 pts = 9 * 24 (base cost 24) + Base Cost Adjustment -22
1 Champion, 44 pts

Sylvan Archers (10#, 320 pts)
9 Sylvan Archers, 276 pts = 9 * 24 (base cost 24) + Base Cost Adjustment 20 + Musician Mus 20 + Standard Bearer Std 20
1 Champion, 44 pts

Sylvan Archers (12#, 413 pts)
11 Sylvan Archers, 324 pts = 11 * 24 (base cost 24) + Base Cost Adjustment 20 + Musician Mus 20 + Standard Bearer Std 20
1 Champion, 44 pts
1 Flaming Standard, 45 pts

Heath Riders (5#, 180 pts)
5 Heath Riders, 180 pts = 5 * 34 (base cost 34) + Base Cost Adjustment 10

Forest Eagle (1#, 100 pts)
1 Forest Eagle, 100 pts = (base cost 60) + Base Cost Adjustment 40

Pathfinders (10#, 430 pts)
10 Pathfinders, 430 pts = 10 * 40 (base cost 40) + Base Cost Adjustment 30

Briar Maidens (8#, 511 pts)
7 Briar Maidens, 314 pts = 7 * 42 (base cost 42) + Standard Bearer Std 20
1 Champion, 162 pts
1 Banner of Discipline, 35 pts

Briar Maidens (5#, 210 pts)
5 Briar Maidens, 210 pts = 5 * 42

Treefather (1#, 480 pts)
1 Treefather, 480 pts
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Etc 2015 warriors
Etc 2016.......angry at age of sigmar
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Re: ETC 2017 Rules and Penalties (everyone please read!!)

Postby pizzaguardian » Mon Aug 14, 2017 6:04 pm

Or you can have more than 1 chairman who is trying to handle all 3 systems, with only the feedback he gets from the forums. :)

I suggest having a native T9A player as chair this year..
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Re: ETC 2017 Rules and Penalties (everyone please read!!)

Postby Bazzu » Mon Aug 14, 2017 7:17 pm

pizzaguardian wrote:Or you can have more than 1 chairman who is trying to handle all 3 systems, with only the feedback he gets from the forums. :)

I suggest having a native T9A player as chair this year..



i don t know the workload anyone in the committee can take care of this.

There is a pool of 300 players yearly so trading should be easy. especially when presenting the number of locals that participate for the ESC.
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Etc 2013 warriors
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Etc 2015 warriors
Etc 2016.......angry at age of sigmar
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Re: ETC 2017 Rules and Penalties (everyone please read!!)

Postby tanka » Tue Aug 15, 2017 5:04 pm

Imo that format is not very easy to read.

Setting out clear penalties for poor formatting and following through with them will clear most problems up.
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Re: ETC 2017 Rules and Penalties (everyone please read!!)

Postby Snake1311 » Wed Aug 16, 2017 10:34 am

Yeah that looks awful, wouldn't want to be presented with 250+ lists in that format.

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Re: ETC 2017 Rules and Penalties (everyone please read!!)

Postby pizzaguardian » Wed Aug 16, 2017 8:51 pm

I would suggest at least opening different forum topics for every country. Corrections all discussed under a single topic got complicated way too fast.
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Re: ETC 2017 Rules and Penalties (everyone please read!!)

Postby Dim » Sun Aug 20, 2017 10:57 pm

I think that the ETC this year showed that it is necessary to become more systematic about time usage during games. I know I am not the best to talk about it, but I think it is important that we go forward with respect to this issue. They were a quite significant amount of unfinished games and stalling accusations.

If we start measuring time seriously as some suggests, there should be clear rules on how to actually measure it and what we do with the measurement.

Question 0) when is the timer switched? for dice rolls? for decisions only? questions/answers about army and armylists? correction of wrong movements or unit placements?

Question 1) who gets to loose time when a referee is called upon?
I think this time should be recorded separately and the judge decides, at the same time he makes his call, between splitting the lost time between the players (if there is a good reason for the call), or adding it to the time of one of the players only. He adjusts the clock while the game moves on.

This also allows the referee to have more "soft punishments" (in the form of a time penalty) which are easy to give as warnings, for instance for being remotely aggressive with a ref, or requesting calls on stupid things. They have no direct consequence if the player then hurry up, so they are perfect as warnings.

Question 2) what happens when someone use more than its allowed time? I think that the only fair decision is to modify the result of the game by automatic points compensation.

The scale "time for points" is difficult to come up with but it should avoid penalties which do not even benefit "the victims".

A starting point could be 2:00 per player (if the game is supposed to last 4:00). At the end every 10 minutes overtime swing the result by +1/-1.

There is probably less need for applying penalty points for late submission of results with such a system. If a game goes overtime it means that a player is automatically giving points away, I am sure he will hurry up! A buffer of up to 30" can be arranged in the schedule to avoid any issue. I am sure that every player can enjoy the extra 30" for lunch anyway.

Of course this can be made optional if both players agree on not taking time issues that seriously.

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Re: ETC 2017 Rules and Penalties (everyone please read!!)

Postby Razon » Mon Aug 21, 2017 8:28 am

Chess clocks are not a good solution for dealing with stalling and will cause as much problems as they solve.

When a person is ready to cheat and lie directly (which more then one has demonstrated at Salamanca), only thing that will stop him from doing it are sanctions. Progressively hard sanctions.
All sanctions should be handed to both players as a blanket rule. That will further prevent players from causing problems.
The judges should be given power to separate the offending player and the victim by removing the penalty from the latter; if they so choose to do.

For tourney Keeper, would it be possible to prevent public access to all the results? And only give captain accounts permission to enter results? So each team can only fill in their own results. And would it be possible to enter a new field? End turn (1-6).
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