2017 ETC T9A List Corrections

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Re: 2017 ETC T9A List Corrections

Postby KeyserSoze » Tue Jul 11, 2017 9:15 pm

We are here to discuss everything. Your attitude certainly does not help at all, but rather pushes us to "do as we please".
You can see the reply above you as an example ;-)

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Re: 2017 ETC T9A List Corrections

Postby mike newman » Wed Jul 12, 2017 4:52 am

I think the referees have been very fair, and maybe somewhat lenient

1 BP penalty to let you have the lore of your choice, or sky reapers on your sloops etc is not a big price to pay - it certainly could have been a lot worse

Likewise with Russia, you cannot take the totem because doing so makes the list illegal, 1 BP penalty for an illegal list is not a large penalty like some of the captains wanted

Personally I applaud the referees, I think all the decisions they have come to seem fair. And hope they stick by them and the teams in questions realise on balance the outcome could have been a lot worse for them and therefor accept the referees decision as final and without argument (as it should be)
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Re: 2017 ETC T9A List Corrections

Postby KeyserSoze » Wed Jul 12, 2017 6:23 am

Thank you Mike. It's not easy for us to become the bad guys and get in quarel, and you have to understand that the penalty is symbolic, rather than actually punishing.

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Re: 2017 ETC T9A List Corrections

Postby spellviewer » Wed Jul 12, 2017 7:20 am

Every year was system: if changes gives no advantage - it is nothing. I don't see any advantage if our SA player will have same price of unit without jaguar, so it only gives advantage to our opps.

Every year was little mistakes (i mean mistakes, not swaps with weapins or forgotten paths) and correction with no advantage was always ok.
I see difference between ("we want to add shooting weapon" and "we take Jaquar, but we cant take it, ok we will play without Jaguar with same price and same roster")
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Re: 2017 ETC T9A List Corrections

Postby mike newman » Wed Jul 12, 2017 7:37 am

Either way your list was illegal

A 1 BP penalty for an illegal list is a very small price to pay - and one which should have little/no consequence

So I wouldn't be complaining too much. Especially as some captains were complaining for big penalties for illegal lists
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Re: 2017 ETC T9A List Corrections

Postby Furion » Wed Jul 12, 2017 8:18 am

KeyserSoze wrote:We are here to discuss everything. Your attitude certainly does not help at all, but rather pushes us to "do as we please".
You can see the reply above you as an example ;-)

It doesnt say good things about referes if they "do as they please" having logic in no regard.

Are you really postulating that there is actual choice to be made when it comes to sky sloop weapons? And if, that withholding this choice gives actual advantage when it comes to list publication?

Given 0 (as in: zero) lists have this bound spell and most lists have sky sloops? It's the same kind of typo that we had dozens in this and every year. How can one be penalized for typing mistales that give no advantage to the team?

As an anecdotal evidence i will also say that with very similiar list i played in Herford (even vs Mike Newman). My list also didnt specify sky reapers back then. NO ONE even asked what is the equipmentn of sloops. I'm pretty sure that most non-HE players have no idea that there is option to drop the sky reaper.

I urge to reconsider.
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Re: 2017 ETC T9A List Corrections

Postby KeyserSoze » Wed Jul 12, 2017 8:20 am

I agree that past years there were several mistakes that went unpunished. But we can't backtrack that and apply penalties in past events. Moreover, I can't find any better way to push players to be more careful with their lists.

And I honestly don't care if a choice is highly unpopular, like storm penant or spears on hobbos.
Last year we did not allow a KoE player to change the blessing, although the blessing he (accidentaly) chose has never been taken by anyone as long as I remember.

And, let's say that after list submission, there are 25+ cavalry lists. Who guarantees that the ID player would still choose bows over spears?
In all honesty I believe he'd still choose bows. But you have to understand we can't base our arguments on what "would happen", but on what happens.
If we did so, we'd lose our reliability and the impartial character we're suppossed to keep.

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Re: 2017 ETC T9A List Corrections

Postby mike newman » Wed Jul 12, 2017 10:42 am

Furion wrote:
KeyserSoze wrote:We are here to discuss everything. Your attitude certainly does not help at all, but rather pushes us to "do as we please".
You can see the reply above you as an example ;-)

It doesnt say good things about referes if they "do as they please" having logic in no regard.

Are you really postulating that there is actual choice to be made when it comes to sky sloop weapons? And if, that withholding this choice gives actual advantage when it comes to list publication?

Given 0 (as in: zero) lists have this bound spell and most lists have sky sloops? It's the same kind of typo that we had dozens in this and every year. How can one be penalized for typing mistales that give no advantage to the team?

As an anecdotal evidence i will also say that with very similiar list i played in Herford (even vs Mike Newman). My list also didnt specify sky reapers back then. NO ONE even asked what is the equipmentn of sloops. I'm pretty sure that most non-HE players have no idea that there is option to drop the sky reaper.

I urge to reconsider.



Yeah and they were useless! The bound spell would have been loads better!!!

What bound spell do they have again?!?? :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: 2017 ETC T9A List Corrections

Postby Furion » Wed Jul 12, 2017 10:53 am

KeyserSoze wrote:I agree that past years there were several mistakes that went unpunished. But we can't backtrack that and apply penalties in past events. Moreover, I can't find any better way to push players to be more careful with their lists.

And I honestly don't care if a choice is highly unpopular, like storm penant or spears on hobbos.
Last year we did not allow a KoE player to change the blessing, although the blessing he (accidentaly) chose has never been taken by anyone as long as I remember.

And, let's say that after list submission, there are 25+ cavalry lists. Who guarantees that the ID player would still choose bows over spears?
In all honesty I believe he'd still choose bows. But you have to understand we can't base our arguments on what "would happen", but on what happens.
If we did so, we'd lose our reliability and the impartial character we're suppossed to keep.


Bows vs spears on hobbs is an actual choice to be made.

Bound vs sky reaper isn't.

Don't act unprofessional by puting the two mistakes on par.
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Re: 2017 ETC T9A List Corrections

Postby Maelstrom » Wed Jul 12, 2017 11:02 am

It is precisely the same as picking a path on a wizard. A mandatory choice that was not specified. I see absolutely no difference from a rules point of view. Arguments about meta/optional choices are irrelevant as they are subjective.

Your accusations of unprofessionalism are laughable.

Fwiw I think a 1 point reduction is a very small price to pay for list corrections considering how long the format has been available. (Especially as some of the changes are to perfectly legal lists)
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Re: 2017 ETC T9A List Corrections

Postby orion 76 » Wed Jul 12, 2017 11:04 am

Its certainly dissapointing that I was not allowed to change lists, but I fully accept and embrace the referee's decisions. May I just say in my defence that I was on a heavy dose of medication as part of my anger-management therapy prescribed by my parole officer, and I just copied/pasted from the wrong document. I will now have to play an agressive list for 6 days straight; not good for my condition, but oh well...
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Re: 2017 ETC T9A List Corrections

Postby mike newman » Wed Jul 12, 2017 11:08 am

Ivan as I'm aware your orginal request to change lists was probably a tongue in cheek post trying to make a point. I would have found it hilarious if the refs had enforced the list change but docked Australia a crap load of BP's :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: 2017 ETC T9A List Corrections

Postby KeyserSoze » Wed Jul 12, 2017 11:10 am

In my opinion, forgiving an illegal list and punishing an illegal list, both having not chosen a mandatory option, would be highly unprofessional.

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Re: 2017 ETC T9A List Corrections

Postby orion 76 » Wed Jul 12, 2017 11:13 am

mike newman wrote:Ivan as I'm aware your orginal request to change lists was probably a tongue in cheek post trying to make a point. I would have found it hilarious if the refs had enforced the list change but docked Australia a crap load of BP's :lol: :lol: :lol:


hahahaha.... you know I actually discussed that with someone at one stage. I would have been beaten to a bloody pulp by my team mates!! (I trusted in the referees' good judgement from the beginning, and judging from the resolutions of all cases they have certainly not failed me. Good job lads. No more trolling from me) :P
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Re: 2017 ETC T9A List Corrections

Postby KeyserSoze » Wed Jul 12, 2017 12:08 pm

Well, Orion, I certainly appreciate what you've done for the 9th age, and it's sad you sent the wrong list, but rules are rules. If we allowed such changes, we would open Aeolous' Sack, and certainly lose our credibility.

I really, really hope, that these(minor) penalties are the last we enforce.

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Re: 2017 ETC T9A List Corrections

Postby Bazzu » Wed Jul 12, 2017 12:25 pm

From Malta we acknowledge your decision with no complaints and sry again for missing the deadline and posting in the last 15mins

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Re: 2017 ETC T9A List Corrections

Postby Dim » Wed Jul 12, 2017 1:50 pm

KeyserSoze wrote:Hello everyone. The 9th Age referees has discussed every case of mistakes in lists and requests in chages. Our decisions are the following:

Case #1:
Team Australia.
A player wants to swap his list, because he sent his ESC list in the ETC document.
Decision: Rejected.

Case #2:
Team Italy, ID player.
Player wants to add Bows to his hobgoblins.
Decision: Accepted. The referees are suggesting -1 BP penalty for illegal list submisison.

Case #3:
Team Poland, HE player
Player wants to switch Cloak of Stars for another item.
Decision: Rejected.

Case #4:
Team Malta, BH player.
Player wants to add Throwing Weapons to his general.
Decision: Rejected.

Case #5:
Team Austria, VS player.
Player has not chosen a path for his Magister, he wishes to choose Thaumaturgy.
Decision: Accepted. The referees are suggesting -1 BP penalty for illegal list submisison.

Case #6:
Team Malta, ID player.
Player has not chosen a path for one of his Prophets, he wishes to choose Alchemy.
Decision: Accepted. The referees are suggesting -1 BP penalty for illegal list submisison.

Case #7:
Team Turkey, VC player.
Player has not chosen a path for his General, he wishes to choose Evocation.
Decision: Accepted. The referees are suggesting -1 BP penalty for illegal list submisison.

Case #8:
Team Poland, HE player.
Player wants to add Sky Reaper option to the Sky Sloop.
Decision: Accepted. The referees are suggesting -1 BP penalty for illegal list submisison.

Case #9:
Team Russia, SA player.
Player wants to remove Totem from one of his units and add Standard Bearer.
Decision: Accepted. The referees are suggesting -1 BP penalty for illegal list submisison.

If captains have objections on any decision taken, or wish to further discuss them, feel free to contact me or answer below.


Well done. It is great to see that refs are not afraid to take action. 1BP is not likely to change the ETC winner anyway (in the past history it would have mattered only once), but this decision will foster more accurate lists for the next years.

I think it would have been easier to accept the sentence if the penalty "-1 BP penalty for illegal list submisison" would have been known at the time of list submission.

Likewise, it would be great if you could publish a list of BP penalties for common offenses which can happen while playing, if you plan to apply any.
For instance for timing issues, rule mistake, movement of units outside of movement phase, or simply bad behavior with the refs.

Having guidelines would help both to dissuade players in trying edgy play and avoid the kind of problem which happened last year:

viewtopic.php?f=18&t=135192

Apparently in 40k they have guidelines for common offenses, maybe you can use it as inspiration?
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Re: 2017 ETC T9A List Corrections

Postby Furion » Wed Jul 12, 2017 2:28 pm

Just clarify how is this -1 BP penalty applied.
Is it -1 from 600 or -1 from 960?
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Re: 2017 ETC T9A List Corrections

Postby mike newman » Wed Jul 12, 2017 3:46 pm

Obviously it will be 1 from 600 :lol: :lol: :lol:

And applied at the end of the tournament
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Re: 2017 ETC T9A List Corrections

Postby Snake1311 » Wed Jul 12, 2017 3:50 pm

Why is it obvious?

I would have thought it would be -1 BP from both.

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Re: 2017 ETC T9A List Corrections

Postby mike newman » Wed Jul 12, 2017 4:16 pm

It was more the fact he would even suggest it would only come off the 960 that made me laugh

Can't work out if he's trolling the refs or just has massive balls :lol:

Either way. Funny
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Re: 2017 ETC T9A List Corrections

Postby KeyserSoze » Wed Jul 12, 2017 5:03 pm

Furion wrote:It doesnt say good things about referes if they "do as they please" having logic in no regard.

Are you really postulating that there is actual choice to be made when it comes to sky sloop weapons? And if, that withholding this choice gives actual advantage when it comes to list publication?

Given 0 (as in: zero) lists have this bound spell and most lists have sky sloops? It's the same kind of typo that we had dozens in this and every year. How can one be penalized for typing mistales that give no advantage to the team?

As an anecdotal evidence i will also say that with very similiar list i played in Herford (even vs Mike Newman). My list also didnt specify sky reapers back then. NO ONE even asked what is the equipmentn of sloops. I'm pretty sure that most non-HE players have no idea that there is option to drop the sky reaper.

I urge to reconsider.


1. Apologies if I wasn't clear enough. I never said we will "do as we please". I said that when someone is calling our decisions ridiculous or unprofessional makes us wanting to do so. But we don't.

2. I'm not the one claiming it's there's an actual choice between option. Armybook does. I base my decision on that, and not on speculations, tactics, popularity, meta, and other vague factors.

3. The fact that you played exactly the same list without specifying anything and without opponents asking is irrelevant to our case here. And in fact, your list there was still illegal, and your opponents should have asked. I wasn't there, and I honestly do not care.

4. Last year most non-ID players did not know the Disciples even existed. Does this mean that the lists with Disciples were illegal? Does this mean they were a bad choice?

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Re: 2017 ETC T9A List Corrections

Postby Slatchman » Wed Jul 12, 2017 6:16 pm

A couple of clarifications for Team Wales

Ogre shaman has path of thaumaturgy (only path available as he has hellfist)

Saurian ancient list states red ring, this should be ring of fire

KOE player name is Samuel Freestone and has favour of the king (this was a copy paste error)

Sorry for these small mistakes hopefully the penalty hammer will be gentle :D
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Re: 2017 ETC T9A List Corrections

Postby Slatchman » Wed Jul 12, 2017 6:24 pm

SA correction (correct item name)

Cuatl Lord, General, Battle Standard Bearer, Unconquerable Will, Ring of fire, Book of Arcane Power, Path
of Alchemy - 820

OK correction (path added)

Shaman, Hellfist, 4 Spells, Path of Thaumaturgy, Ring of Fire, Sceptre of Power – 700

KOE correction (add player name and favour)

Samuel Freestone - Kingdom Of Equitaine

Favour of the King
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Re: 2017 ETC T9A List Corrections

Postby Furion » Wed Jul 12, 2017 7:53 pm

KeyserSoze wrote:
2. I'm not the one claiming it's there's an actual choice between option. Armybook does. I base my decision on that, and not on speculations, tactics, popularity, meta, and other factors

You based your decision on your lack of understanding of the game, which is sad.
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Re: 2017 ETC T9A List Corrections

Postby KeyserSoze » Wed Jul 12, 2017 8:11 pm

I'm ok with that. I'm a bad player that does not understand tactics, list building, etc. That's why I'm not player, but a ref. My job is to understand rules, which, it seems I do.

You can go on as long as you want with the insults, I'm not going to make any exceptions to any case.

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Re: 2017 ETC T9A List Corrections

Postby Lagerlof » Wed Jul 12, 2017 8:13 pm

Furion wrote:
KeyserSoze wrote:
2. I'm not the one claiming it's there's an actual choice between option. Armybook does. I base my decision on that, and not on speculations, tactics, popularity, meta, and other factors

You based your decision on your lack of understanding of the game, which is sad.


The decision was made with 100 % agreement with all refs, it was not his choice alone.

Thaumaturgy on a VS magister instead of Witchcraft is equally "obvious", still got -1 BP as well.

Most teams sent in legal lists, so it's doable ;)
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Re: 2017 ETC T9A List Corrections

Postby orion 76 » Wed Jul 12, 2017 8:17 pm

Furion wrote:
KeyserSoze wrote:
2. I'm not the one claiming it's there's an actual choice between option. Armybook does. I base my decision on that, and not on speculations, tactics, popularity, meta, and other factors

You based your decision on your lack of understanding of the game, which is sad.


Alright, thats enough. Be a man and accept your penalty. This is the type of behaviour from you that makes most people not want to even interact with you. You think you're god's gift to warhammer yet you can't even type in correctly the name of one of the most used units of your army book. Let the refs do their job.
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Re: 2017 ETC T9A List Corrections

Postby Bazzu » Wed Jul 12, 2017 10:01 pm

Furion wrote:
KeyserSoze wrote:
2. I'm not the one claiming it's there's an actual choice between option. Armybook does. I base my decision on that, and not on speculations, tactics, popularity, meta, and other factors

You based your decision on your lack of understanding of the game, which is sad.


Since you gently offered us your lists i will offer you our HE list that is if the captains agree.
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Re: 2017 ETC T9A List Corrections

Postby pizzaguardian » Wed Jul 12, 2017 10:43 pm

General warning to everybody and especially Poland. BE POLITE.
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