2017 ETC T9A List Corrections

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Re: 2017 ETC T9A List Corrections

Postby Lagerlof » Wed Jul 26, 2017 7:24 am

mike newman wrote:What's changed sorry?


His path is now Pyromancy instead of Fire and the small goblin unit have their (free) shields
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Re: 2017 ETC T9A List Corrections

Postby spellviewer » Wed Jul 26, 2017 8:09 am

When we can see final version of lists and final penalty list?
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Re: 2017 ETC T9A List Corrections

Postby Zaanash » Wed Jul 26, 2017 8:41 am

The final lists (the ones that have been printed as far as I know) are available here:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BywUeE ... d2X0k/view
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Re: 2017 ETC T9A List Corrections

Postby orion 76 » Wed Jul 26, 2017 9:00 am

Guys, our VC player has just realized that he has not typed in Champion for his Barrow Knight unit, however it is paid for and included in the final price, and mathematically it cannot be anything else other than a champion:


Gonzalo "Gundizalbo" Gil López - Vampire Covenant

Bloodline - Brotherhood oft he Dragon
Vampire Count, Skeletal Steed, General, The Dead Arise, 1 Spell, Apprentice, Occultism, Perfect Warrior,
Tulliu's Teeth, Red Gauntlets of Gilles the Raux -710
Vampire Courtier, Skeletal Steed, BSB, Lucky Shield, Blade of Red Thirst -395
Necromancer, 4 Spells, Master, Evocation, Book of Arcane Power -480
Necromancer, 1 Spell, Apprentice, Evocation -160
44 Skeletons, FCG, War Standard -490
28 Zombies, M -178
2x 8 Dire Wolves -116
12 Barrow Knights, M, S, Banner of the Barrow Kings -670
2 Great Bats -80
2x 5 Vampire Knights, PA&DC -550
Total: 4495
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Re: 2017 ETC T9A List Corrections

Postby Lagerlof » Wed Jul 26, 2017 10:26 am

orion 76 wrote:Guys, our VC player has just realized that he has not typed in Champion for his Barrow Knight unit, however it is paid for and included in the final price, and mathematically it cannot be anything else other than a champion:


Gonzalo "Gundizalbo" Gil López - Vampire Covenant

Bloodline - Brotherhood oft he Dragon
Vampire Count, Skeletal Steed, General, The Dead Arise, 1 Spell, Apprentice, Occultism, Perfect Warrior,
Tulliu's Teeth, Red Gauntlets of Gilles the Raux -710
Vampire Courtier, Skeletal Steed, BSB, Lucky Shield, Blade of Red Thirst -395
Necromancer, 4 Spells, Master, Evocation, Book of Arcane Power -480
Necromancer, 1 Spell, Apprentice, Evocation -160
44 Skeletons, FCG, War Standard -490
28 Zombies, M -178
2x 8 Dire Wolves -116
12 Barrow Knights, M, S, Banner of the Barrow Kings -670
2 Great Bats -80
2x 5 Vampire Knights, PA&DC -550
Total: 4495



The lists are already printed. So it's VERY important that you tell the other team captain about this BEFORE pairing.

If you want to be sure, get a ref to witness it so the other team dont just go "they never told us!" after pairings :P

You will of course be allowed to play with the champion you paid for.
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Re: 2017 ETC T9A List Corrections

Postby orion 76 » Wed Jul 26, 2017 11:50 am

Thanks mate, cheers. We will certainly do that at every single round we play. Ill make sure of it.
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Re: 2017 ETC T9A List Corrections

Postby Chosen of Sigmar » Wed Jul 26, 2017 12:42 pm

For Team Belgium there are two typo's in the List of VC:
  • Necromancer Aprentice, 1 spell, Evocation should be at 160 pts in stead of 260
  • The Altar of Undeath includes the Dark Tome upgrade (not written down) at 460 points.
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Re: 2017 ETC T9A List Corrections

Postby orion 76 » Wed Jul 26, 2017 1:37 pm

Chosen of Sigmar wrote:For Team Belgium there are two typo's in the List of VC:
  • Necromancer Aprentice, 1 spell, Evocation should be at 160 pts in stead of 260
  • The Altar of Undeath includes the Dark Tome upgrade (not written down) at 460 points.


Yeah, the list is 4600 if you add 260 for that mage, and its also over 40% for characters that way. So at 160 (his real price) it comes to 4500 and just under 40% for characters; its an obvious typo. The Altar at 460 can only mean it has the Tome, so all good imo. You should probably just let all your opponents know before pairings takes place though.
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Re: 2017 ETC T9A List Corrections

Postby Chris Legg » Wed Jul 26, 2017 5:52 pm

Lagerlof wrote:
mike newman wrote:What's changed sorry?


His path is now Pyromancy instead of Fire and the small goblin unit have their (free) shields


This is a free option but an option nontherless, so will they take the points hit in line with England and Ireland over the peasant spears?
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Re: 2017 ETC T9A List Corrections

Postby Lagerlof » Thu Jul 27, 2017 7:16 am

Chris Legg wrote:
Lagerlof wrote:
mike newman wrote:What's changed sorry?


His path is now Pyromancy instead of Fire and the small goblin unit have their (free) shields


This is a free option but an option nontherless, so will they take the points hit in line with England and Ireland over the peasant spears?


We decided they could have it without a penalty, because unlike the spears on peasents there is no drawback of chosing shields over nothing. The only reason it's even an option is for WYSIWYG I guess.

Chosing spears over hand weapon and shield however changes the unit significantly.

TL:DR Getting free shields on goblins can't be "opted" depending on opponents lists. Getting spears after seeing lists can (not saying anyone did, just stating facts). Forgetting shields can therefor clearly be deemed to be a typo and nothing more.
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Re: 2017 ETC T9A List Corrections

Postby Grayfox » Thu Jul 27, 2017 7:59 am

Zaanash wrote:The final lists (the ones that have been printed as far as I know) are available here:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BywUeE ... d2X0k/view


But the adjustment I wrote for Team Norway 12 days ago still havent beeen added... And That makes me fear others havent been either....
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Re: 2017 ETC T9A List Corrections

Postby Chris Legg » Thu Jul 27, 2017 7:59 am

Lagerlof wrote:
Chris Legg wrote:
Lagerlof wrote:
His path is now Pyromancy instead of Fire and the small goblin unit have their (free) shields


This is a free option but an option nontherless, so will they take the points hit in line with England and Ireland over the peasant spears?


We decided they could have it without a penalty, because unlike the spears on peasents there is no drawback of chosing shields over nothing. The only reason it's even an option is for WYSIWYG I guess.

Chosing spears over hand weapon and shield however changes the unit significantly.

TL:DR Getting free shields on goblins can't be "opted" depending on opponents lists. Getting spears after seeing lists can (not saying anyone did, just stating facts). Forgetting shields can therefor clearly be deemed to be a typo and nothing more.


That's an interesting decision as Keysersoze has already said (re Furions list) that it was not the refs job to decide if a choice was 'obvious' or any drawback - only to rule if it was a list change, and if so a penalty would apply.

This is clearly a list change for and an option not taken and is inconsistent with other teams penalties.
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Re: 2017 ETC T9A List Corrections

Postby mike newman » Thu Jul 27, 2017 8:14 am

I have complete faith in you Mathias as well you know

But have to be careful doesn't appear to be favourism also...

All other list changes were pointed out by the teams themselves and made very clear what had gone wrong

This list change was posted by the refs, and the change was not made obvious to the point where we had to ask what it was

And inconsistently they have not been given a points penalty for changing a legal list by adding something that was a free option ala Ireland, England, Poland
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Re: 2017 ETC T9A List Corrections

Postby Lagerlof » Thu Jul 27, 2017 8:28 am

mike newman wrote:I have complete faith in you Mathias as well you know

But have to be careful doesn't appear to be favourism also...

All other list changes were pointed out by the teams themselves and made very clear what had gone wrong

This list change was posted by the refs, and the change was not made obvious to the point where we had to ask what it was

And inconsistently they have not been given a points penalty for changing a legal list by adding something that was a free option ala Ireland, England, Poland


I understand.

It was not my decision alone.

I think the simplest explaination here is that there is never a reason to not take shields, unless your models don't have it.

The other situations you mention have options that have an impact. WIthout spears you have Parry, the Sky Sloops actually has another option (that it sucks isn't really something you can take into account IMO).

Same as the EoS player that forgot to write if he had Distracting or LR option.

PS. As for favourism, the OnG player in question 20-0'd me in Denmark. So trust me, no favourism :P
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Re: 2017 ETC T9A List Corrections

Postby mike newman » Thu Jul 27, 2017 12:01 pm

Lagerlof wrote:
The other situations you mention have options that have an impact. WIthout spears you have Parry, the Sky Sloops actually has another option (that it sucks isn't really something you can take into account IMO).



I don't see how you can claim the option of having shields doesn't make an impact. When it clearly does

The fact that it sucks to not have shields (or that it's a no brainer) isn't really something you can really take into account

Or certainly shouldn't be if you are being consistent across the board

It is a list change to include a free option. All list changes to include free options have so far been deducted one BP
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Re: 2017 ETC T9A List Corrections

Postby manny » Thu Jul 27, 2017 12:26 pm

mike newman wrote:
But have to be careful doesn't appear to be favourism also...

All other list changes were pointed out by the teams themselves and made very clear what had gone wrong

This list change was posted by the refs, and the change was not made obvious to the point where we had to ask what it was

The change was announced by me in this thread the "Mon Jul 10, 2017 8:27 am".
viewtopic.php?f=18&t=136418&start=30#p1596703

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Re: 2017 ETC T9A List Corrections

Postby Doomsday » Thu Jul 27, 2017 4:42 pm

Team Italy:
Our Infernal Dwarf list in final file (https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BywUeE ... d2X0k/view) is not correct. The correct version is here:

Francesco Leoni - Infernal Dwarvves
Overlord, General, Shield, Dragon Mantle, Onyx Hammer, Potion of Swiftness, Ring of Dessication - 526
Vizier, BSB, Infernal Weapon, Banner of Speed, Crown of Scorn, Dusk Stone, Hardened Shield - 380
Hobgoblin Chieftain: Wolf - 130
Hobgoblin Chieftain: Wolf, Shield - 134
28x Infernal Warriors, Shield, Blunderbuss, M - 486
28x Infernal Warriors, Shield, Blunderbuss, M - 486
20x Hobgoblins, Bow, M - 170
28x Immortals, Infernal Weapon, Shield, C, M, S, Flaming Standard - 825
6x Kadim Incarnates, C - 680
6x Kadim Incarnates, C - 680
4497
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Re: 2017 ETC T9A List Corrections

Postby Chris Legg » Thu Jul 27, 2017 5:45 pm

This is surely a list change? You have dropped equipment from the characters, a dwarf from both core units and added a pointed bow option for the Hobgoblins?
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Re: 2017 ETC T9A List Corrections

Postby Doomsday » Thu Jul 27, 2017 7:07 pm

Doomsday wrote:Team Italy.
We did a mistake in ID list. Hobgoblins must have an equipment. Sorry about that but our Army Builder has a bug.
We did minimal change to the list to make it legal (removed shield, ligth armour from Hobgoblin Chieftain, 2 Warriors and added Bow to Hobgobilns):

Francesco Leoni - Infernal Dwarvves
Overlord, General, Shield, Dragon Mantle, Onyx Hammer, Potion of Swiftness, Ring of Dessication - 526
Vizier, BSB, Infernal Weapon, Banner of Speed, Crown of Scorn, Dusk Stone, Hardened Shield - 380
Hobgoblin Chieftain: Wolf - 130
Hobgoblin Chieftain: Wolf, Shield - 134
28x Infernal Warriors, Shield, Blunderbuss, M - 486
28x Infernal Warriors, Shield, Blunderbuss, M - 486
20x Hobgoblins, Bow, M - 170
28x Immortals, Infernal Weapon, Shield, C, M, S, Flaming Standard - 825
6x Kadim Incarnates, C - 680
6x Kadim Incarnates, C - 680
4497

Thank you,
Simone Cucuzza


I quoted my post from page 2 of this topic.
We already paid 1 penalty point for the change. The list written in final file is not correct because Hobgoblin MUST have an equipment and MUST pay for it.
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Re: 2017 ETC T9A List Corrections

Postby KeyserSoze » Thu Jul 27, 2017 9:26 pm

The case about goblin shields is different from the other cases. Thus, we decided no penalty is needed in this one.
In other words: Player has absolutely no reason to NOT take shields. He gains nothing. Unlike hobgoblins' equipment, sky sloops, magic paths, spears on peasants etc.

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Re: 2017 ETC T9A List Corrections

Postby spellviewer » Fri Jul 28, 2017 5:55 am

KeyserSoze wrote:The case about goblin shields is different from the other cases. Thus, we decided no penalty is needed in this one.
In other words: Player has absolutely no reason to NOT take shields. He gains nothing. Unlike hobgoblins' equipment, sky sloops, magic paths, spears on peasants etc.


+1 it is different situations, we support no penalty for this case
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Re: 2017 ETC T9A List Corrections

Postby KeyserSoze » Fri Jul 28, 2017 8:45 am

Anyone still having a doubt on this, consider the following case as a comparison:

160 - Necromancer, wizard apprentice, evocation

Should the above get a penalty too? He hasn't written "1 learned spell", which is free.
Cost implies he has not bought extra spells.
But, has he anything to gain by playing without spells instead of playing with 1?

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Re: 2017 ETC T9A List Corrections

Postby Tamodan » Fri Jul 28, 2017 2:40 pm

The lord of team Belgium's HBE has a Lion's Fur. I thought listing this was unnecessary, given that it comes automatically with the Royal Huntsmen upgrade and was as such considered part of this upgrade, but I saw a few (though not all) other HBEs list is, so I thought I'd point it out, better safe then sorry! :)
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Re: 2017 ETC T9A List Corrections

Postby mike newman » Fri Jul 28, 2017 3:29 pm

Anyone still having a doubt on this, consider the following case as a comparison:

160 - Necromancer, wizard apprentice, evocation

Should the above get a penalty too? He hasn't written "1 learned spell", which is free.
Cost implies he has not bought extra spells.
But, has he anything to gain by playing without spells instead of playing with 1?


Not wanting to press the issue because I think it's gone far enough. But that is not a comparable situation in any way at all. A necromancer cannot not select 1 learned spell. A goblin unit can not select shields.

Having the spell is not an option
Having shields is an option
All other option changes have been penalised
Refs have stated it doesn't matter if option is obvious will still be punished

But fair enough. Refs decision i guess is final. Just appears to be very inconsistent.
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Re: 2017 ETC T9A List Corrections

Postby KeyserSoze » Fri Jul 28, 2017 7:13 pm

Ok let me break this down a little.
Advantage of taking Occultism ovet Evocation: different spells, some of which might me better.
Advantage of hand weapon over spears: Parry.
Advantage of spears on hobbos over bows: better cc phase.
Advantage of no shields on goblins vs shields: [___]

Fill in the last brackets and we can talk about inconsistency, favouritism or whatever.

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Re: 2017 ETC T9A List Corrections

Postby KeyserSoze » Fri Jul 28, 2017 7:15 pm

The statement about "obvious" refered to tactics, not to what the armybook actually says.
Thus it's irrelevant to this case.

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Re: 2017 ETC T9A List Corrections

Postby orion 76 » Fri Jul 28, 2017 8:05 pm

What baffles me is why the option of shields is free when there is absolutely no downside of taking them..... thats just a poorly written entry imo.
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Re: 2017 ETC T9A List Corrections

Postby Lagerlof » Fri Jul 28, 2017 9:45 pm

orion 76 wrote:What baffles me is why the option of shields is free when there is absolutely no downside of taking them..... thats just a poorly written entry imo.


Most likely for WYSIWYG reasons.

Agree it shouldn't even be an option, just makes things like this possible.
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Re: 2017 ETC T9A List Corrections

Postby KeyserSoze » Sat Jul 29, 2017 12:59 pm

Here's a compilation of all penalties we agreed upon for mistakes and/or corrections to lists. If we forgot something, let us know of course.

1. Team Austria: -1BP
2. Team Turkey: -1BP
3. Team Malta: -1BP
4. Team Italy: -1BP
5. Team Poland: -1BP
6. Team Russia: -1BP
7. Team Wales: -1BP
8. Team Ukraine: -1BP
9. Team Norway: -1BP
10. Team Mexico: -1BP
11. Team Argentina: -1BP
12. Team Bulgaria: -1BP
13. Team Ireland: -1BP
14: Team England: -1BP

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Re: 2017 ETC T9A List Corrections

Postby Snake1311 » Wed Aug 02, 2017 12:30 pm

KeyserSoze wrote:Ok let me break this down a little.
Advantage of taking Occultism ovet Evocation: different spells, some of which might me better.
Advantage of hand weapon over spears: Parry.
Advantage of spears on hobbos over bows: better cc phase.
Advantage of no shields on goblins vs shields: [___]

Fill in the last brackets and we can talk about inconsistency, favouritism or whatever.



They become more resilient to Alchemy ;)



On a serious note, its just weird working from the book due to the overly complex goblin entry, no penalty is needed IMO.

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