2017 ETC T9A List Corrections

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Re: 2017 ETC T9A List Corrections

Postby KeyserSoze » Wed Jul 19, 2017 7:14 am

I'm 100% sure the Irish player is a good guy that did an honest mistake. Just like the rest of the players.

Later on I will post the second wave of mistakes/request and our decisions and suggestions.

Captains are free to discuss/vote/whatever and allow changes or illegal lists; they can do as they wish.

And I repeat, without any intention of sounding harsh.
It's the ETC, it's your holidays, you've invested a lot of resources into this. Can't you take 5 minutes to doublecheck your list?

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Re: 2017 ETC T9A List Corrections

Postby houba » Wed Jul 19, 2017 7:41 am

Team Czech agree with Swiss guys and Orion.
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Re: 2017 ETC T9A List Corrections

Postby kiri » Wed Jul 19, 2017 7:54 am

orion 76 wrote:A peasant list without spears is like a man without a penis. I too vote let him have the obvious spears and just give them the same penalty as everyone else. Didnt Furion get a penalty for the sky loop reaper option incident?? Well, same here imo.

Also, if he hadnt told us himself NO ONE wouldve picked upon it. Seriously, the list is basically almost useless without spears on those pesants. This is a person who is dedicating very valuable time and resources for this event, and not allowing that basically ruins his list to the point its unplayable... which means a person's holidays will be ruined. Lets try to remember that this is a game.


Agree with that. Change is OK for Luxembourg.
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Re: 2017 ETC T9A List Corrections

Postby mike newman » Wed Jul 19, 2017 8:10 am

Team England will abstain from voting

Because we have realised we are in the same boat. And have no spears listed on our army list

To the point where we didn't even realise we could have hand weapon and shield. And are now having a debate about as that's an option do we even want spears! :lol: :lol: :lol:


Our main issue is we have 165 peasents armed with spears. If we are made to take hand weapon and shield are we then going to be in trouble because of wysiwyg - as there is no way we can buy build and paint another 165 peasents in less than a week before we leave for etc
Last edited by mike newman on Wed Jul 19, 2017 8:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 2017 ETC T9A List Corrections

Postby KeyserSoze » Wed Jul 19, 2017 8:14 am

We prefer players to be a littl outside wysywig in terms of weapon/armour options than allowing changes to legal lists.

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Re: 2017 ETC T9A List Corrections

Postby Bazzu » Wed Jul 19, 2017 8:16 am

If with -1 penalty i believe it s fine as it follows how other cases where treated BUT if there s a clause somewhere that states that legal lists can t be changed then i m not sure which is the best decision.
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Re: 2017 ETC T9A List Corrections

Postby mike newman » Wed Jul 19, 2017 8:24 am

KeyserSoze wrote:We prefer players to be a littl outside wysywig in terms of weapon/armour options than allowing changes to legal lists.



So that means two possible outcomes

1) -1 penalty and have spears. Wysiwyg.
2) enforced have to use hand weapons. Wysiwyg incorrect but no penalty as enforced by refs?


Question not statement
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Re: 2017 ETC T9A List Corrections

Postby Vojvoda (Duke) Mladen » Wed Jul 19, 2017 8:36 am

Team Serbia supports team Ireland. We played couple of times against them and they were always real gentlemen. Also, they have won best sports award many times so it is surely a honest mistake.
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Re: 2017 ETC T9A List Corrections

Postby Lagerlof » Wed Jul 19, 2017 8:44 am

mike newman wrote:
KeyserSoze wrote:We prefer players to be a littl outside wysywig in terms of weapon/armour options than allowing changes to legal lists.



So that means two possible outcomes

1) -1 penalty and have spears. Wysiwyg.
2) enforced have to use hand weapons. Wysiwyg incorrect but no penalty as enforced by refs?


Question not statement


No, it's either

1. Hand weapon and no penalty for models having spears (WYSIWYG)
2. If the captains are fine with the change they can change, no penalty
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Re: 2017 ETC T9A List Corrections

Postby Ironrock » Wed Jul 19, 2017 9:04 am

I don't see what all the problems/discussions are about.

The organisers produced a pack for list submission, we all read it as we want to and paid to take part in the event.
Within this pack there is a description and example of the required list submission format.

So to my understanding, EVERY failure to match this format should be hit with a -1 point penatly. (if it means impacting all 8 lists then -8 points to the team)
Not listing a mandatory item choice is a failure, not listing a magic path is a failure, (even if there is no option such as with OK Hellfist, not every player may know this) Accidental copy and paste errors, mis-clicking, calling dwarf runes by their nicknames, other typo errors are all still failures.

I know English is my first language, and I applaud each country for the translation job they have to do, but we still had each other member of our team check our lists for format errors to be 100% sure. So that come deadline day we had everything submitted on time in the correct format. (including changing armies 2 days out and having to submit a list not played/tested/or even written up before.)

I feel for the refs in this instance, their job is to make us get this right, I feel that the -1BP penalty is a good way to do this.
Could they have been more strict and apply more penalties, yes they could (perhaps should) so overall I think we are getting more than fair treatment here from the refs.

This is not about the tactical advantage of "forgetting" about the mandatory option between bows/speard/hand weapons etc. or magic item switching, even taking an option no one else is, it's simple.
Submit your list in the chosen format, as set out by the organisers, in time, with all details listed as requested.

ETC play and National represenation is the pinnacle of the hobby, standards set here cascade down to the game at out local levels.
If strict penalties are applied to the format and requirement to be accurate with lists here this can only be a good thing.

Next up will be the painting standards, and WYSIWYG levels at the event, as we all know last year had some eye brow raising issues that need addressing.

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Re: 2017 ETC T9A List Corrections

Postby orion 76 » Wed Jul 19, 2017 9:21 am

mike newman wrote:Team England will abstain from voting

Because we have realised we are in the same boat. And have no spears listed on our army list

To the point where we didn't even realise we could have hand weapon and shield. And are now having a debate about as that's an option do we even want spears! :lol: :lol: :lol:


Our main issue is we have 165 peasents armed with spears. If we are made to take hand weapon and shield are we then going to be in trouble because of wysiwyg - as there is no way we can buy build and paint another 165 peasents in less than a week before we leave for etc


I dont think weapons on models is an issue tbh (as far as WYSIWIG goes): your opponent knows what model/unit it is because he has the list right in front of him. WYSIWYG becames a problem when you have Ogres proxying as trolls or executioners proxying as white lions.

I hope all KoE players that didnt type in spears for their peasants are allowed to take them and just receive the standard -1 BP penalty. Honest mistakes are made, it is what it is, but they should be punishable with slap on the hand... not with a crucifixtion.
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Re: 2017 ETC T9A List Corrections

Postby Raffazza » Wed Jul 19, 2017 9:29 am

orion 76 wrote:I hope all KoE players that didnt type in spears for their peasants are allowed to take them and just receive the standard -1 BP penalty. Honest mistakes are made, it is what it is, but they should be punishable with slap on the hand... not with a crucifixtion.


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Re: 2017 ETC T9A List Corrections

Postby Snake1311 » Wed Jul 19, 2017 11:41 am

orion 76 wrote:I hope all KoE players that didnt type in spears for their peasants are allowed to take them and just receive the standard -1 BP penalty. Honest mistakes are made, it is what it is, but they should be punishable with slap on the hand... not with a crucifixtion.


Pfff, have you ever played against the peasant list? :P

Seriously though, its an obvious oversight. List penalty as if incorrect list, because rules are rules, but lets move on beyond that.

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Re: 2017 ETC T9A List Corrections

Postby Dim » Wed Jul 19, 2017 1:31 pm

To be consistent with other rulings, you could give -2BP for (obviously small & typo) change to a valid armylist, and propose all other people that wanted a small change to take that penalty and get their modification if they'd like to. My guess is that all other players will decline the ability to change.

Concerning WYSIWYG, the rulepack is clear about having 51% with correct equipement. I'd like to know how the judges stand on this, because I personally (and some other persons in my team) started to paint new models to abid to that. If for any reason it is ok not to do so, let me know.

I personally like the painting & WYSIWYG rules. Much more pleasant to play against an army well represented, and it avoid confusion.
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Re: 2017 ETC T9A List Corrections

Postby Lagerlof » Wed Jul 19, 2017 1:56 pm

Dim wrote:To be consistent with other rulings, you could give -2BP for (obviously small & typo) change to a valid armylist, and propose all other people that wanted a small change to take that penalty and get their modification if they'd like to. My guess is that all other players will decline the ability to change.

Concerning WYSIWYG, the rulepack is clear about having 51% with correct equipement. I'd like to know how the judges stand on this, because I personally (and some other persons in my team) started to paint new models to abid to that. If for any reason it is ok not to do so, let me know.

I personally like the painting & WYSIWYG rules. Much more pleasant to play against an army well represented, and it avoid confusion.


PM me pictures of the models and I will let you know.

Personally I hate the WYSIWYG rules. Aslong as the unit can't be mixed up with something else I think it's fine. It should of course also represent what it is supposed to be. A tuna can is not a chariot for example :-#

If you have two units with halbers and say "this is spears", that's fine. What you can't do is have two units with halberds and say "One has halberds, the other has spears" That's confusing.
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Re: 2017 ETC T9A List Corrections

Postby Raffazza » Wed Jul 19, 2017 2:08 pm

Dim wrote:I personally like the painting & WYSIWYG rules. Much more pleasant to play against an army well represented, and it avoid confusion.


We like them too, its why we bought and painted peasants with spears.
If only my parents had taught me to read proper-like..
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Re: 2017 ETC T9A List Corrections

Postby Lagerlof » Wed Jul 19, 2017 2:18 pm

Warpfodder wrote:Hi guys

We have just realized our KoE list never specified spears or hand weapons on the peasant blocks, correct list should be


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Duke:General, humility, hardened shield, crown of autocracy, 290
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3 x 59 Peasants, spears : FC 492
58 Peasants, spears : FC 484
2 x 10 Bowmen : M 160
2 x 5 Yeomen 110
2 x Sacred reliquary 260
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I apologize on behalf of my teammate, please advise if and what penalty is applicable.

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Raffazza wrote:
Dim wrote:I personally like the painting & WYSIWYG rules. Much more pleasant to play against an army well represented, and it avoid confusion.


We like them too, its why we bought and painted peasants with spears.
If only my parents had taught me to read proper-like..
:cry:


Since most responses leaned towards allowing the change we will accept it.

Ireland and Englands KoE now have spears, and you will also recieve the infamous -1 BP for wrongly submitted lists.

So now you don't have to worry about breaking WYSIWYG :P Hopefully you didn't break all spears in half already.
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Re: 2017 ETC T9A List Corrections

Postby mike newman » Wed Jul 19, 2017 2:36 pm

Well that's my day wasted

165 painted arms with hand weapons I'm now never going to need
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Re: 2017 ETC T9A List Corrections

Postby AndyP » Wed Jul 19, 2017 3:37 pm

mike newman wrote:Well that's my day wasted

165 painted arms with hand weapons I'm now never going to need


Big blob of green stuff, insert as many arms as you can, hands pointing out - instant chaos spawn!
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Re: 2017 ETC T9A List Corrections

Postby vince3310 » Wed Jul 19, 2017 3:39 pm

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Re: 2017 ETC T9A List Corrections

Postby Borgio » Wed Jul 19, 2017 9:46 pm

Don't know if this was mentioned before (haven't read all 5 pages)

Turkish Orc & Goblin Iron Orc Warlord has payed for the mandatory Waaagh, but didn't list it on the roster. Not a big issue at all, just make sure all opponents know it.

The same list has 2 units of Goblin Raiders without specifying if they have wolves or spiders. Both choices are free, but the choice must be made, similar to the Sky Sloop case.

I really don't want any penalties, I just want to know what mount he chose so I can make the right assessment to his list :wink:
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Re: 2017 ETC T9A List Corrections

Postby spellviewer » Thu Jul 20, 2017 6:54 am

Lagerlof wrote:Skysloops got a penalty for illegal list yes.

This one isn't illegal, that's the problem. If you write nothing, you are equipped with hand weapon, that's the default option. Skysloops have no default option, they had to chose one of two possible options.

If we allow this, why wouldn't we allow people to change other equipment, or magic items with the same cost?

They get parry now, so it's not useless. But I would have guesses that they should have spears, feels like the better option. But changing something like that after seeing all the lists is a no from me, since we didn't allow anyone else to do it.

I wouldn't mind letting them change to spears if enough captains feel that it's ok. But we (ref team) won't allow any changes to legal lists.


Agree with Lagerlof 100%. I think it is not good to change legal lists after seeing all lists.
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Re: 2017 ETC T9A List Corrections

Postby ukrocky » Thu Jul 20, 2017 9:51 am

@Spellviewer - Check Lagerlof's post about 5 or 6 posts up. That whole discussion is over so no need to be mean and jump back on the 'no change despite it being obvious' band wagon ;)
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Re: 2017 ETC T9A List Corrections

Postby Lagerlof » Thu Jul 20, 2017 10:30 am

Hopefully we can have some better guidelines for next year.

What happens with illegal lists and "obvious" mistakes.

I think it would work with 2 options.

A) Accept mistakes, no changes unless illegal list and only the absolute smallest changes possible. For those who want to win and need every BP

B) Change mistakes with big penalties to the final score. For those who want to play for fun and drink beer, and don't aim to win it. So they don't have to play something terrible and ruin the weekend because they made a small error.
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Re: 2017 ETC T9A List Corrections

Postby ukrocky » Thu Jul 20, 2017 10:34 am

I like it. Especially as I'm planning on boozing it up in 2018 ;)
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Re: 2017 ETC T9A List Corrections

Postby spellviewer » Thu Jul 20, 2017 11:50 am

ukrocky wrote:@Spellviewer - Check Lagerlof's post about 5 or 6 posts up. That whole discussion is over so no need to be mean and jump back on the 'no change despite it being obvious' band wagon ;)

no problem =) I think Refs will decide it in good way.
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Re: 2017 ETC T9A List Corrections

Postby spellviewer » Sat Jul 22, 2017 12:06 pm

Sorry, when can we see final version of rosters ?
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Re: 2017 ETC T9A List Corrections

Postby pizzaguardian » Sat Jul 22, 2017 10:51 pm

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0BywUe ... EY2U1d2X0k

This is still not the final version, but the print version. The printers are busy and we had to start printing, but new mistakes are still being found and corrections made.

So you will get the version above in paper as captains in ETC. But it might be missing some corrections.

THESE DIFFERENCES MUST BE MADE CLEAR TO THE OPPOSING TEAM BEFORE YOU START PAIRINGS.


Obviously the digital versions will be keep getting updated.
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Re: 2017 ETC T9A List Corrections

Postby Lagerlof » Tue Jul 25, 2017 8:26 am

Updated list for Denmark OnG

Kasper Jensen (Manny) - O&G

630 - Iron Orc Warlord, Boar Chariot, General, Waaargh, Great Weapon, Bluffers Helm, Talisman of Supreme Shielding
410 - Common Goblin Witch Doctor, Master Wizard, 4 Learned Spells, Essence of the free mind (Pyromancy, Thaumaturgy)
174 - Common Goblin Chief, BSB, Bow, Shield, Ring of fire
167 - Cave Goblin Chief, Cave Gnasher, Lance, Shield, Bronze Breastplate, Lucky Charm
187 - Cave Goblin Chief, Cave Gnasher, Lance, Shield, Dragonscale Helm, Gem of Fortune
217 - Cave Goblin Chief, Cave Gnasher, Lance, Shield, Crown of the cavern king, Dragonfire Gem
602 - 45 Cave Goblins, FC, Bows, 3 fanatics, Icon Of The Relentless Company
360 - 30 Cave Goblins, M, Bows, 2 fanatics
190 - 20 Common Goblins, M, Bows, Shields, 1 Shady git
80 - 3 x 3 Grotlings
90 - 4 x 1 Skewerer
480 - 2 x 1 Gargantula

4497 points
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Re: 2017 ETC T9A List Corrections

Postby mike newman » Wed Jul 26, 2017 2:34 am

What's changed sorry?
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