[ETC 2017] Tournament-Pack, Maps, Pairings & Scenarios

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[ETC 2017] Tournament-Pack, Maps, Pairings & Scenarios

Postby Frederick » Wed Mar 01, 2017 4:23 pm

Dear Captains and Players,

as part of the T9A-team that is responsible for the official T9A-tournament-pack i contacted the Chairman "pizzaguardian" to ask him about the plans for Tournament-Pack, Maps, Pairings & Scenarios on the T9A-event of ETC 2017 in Salamanca.

As Marko just initiated a vote on a Judges-Pack we would like to integrate into the official T9A-tournament-pack, i asked him to set up several votes regarding the topics in the subject as well.

He pointed out, that there needes to be a discussion on this forum first, before the chairmen can set up any votes.


So let´s get this started before we waste much more time, since i know a lot of teams are desperately waiting for the final call on the subjects i mentioned (and since T9A is frozen until after ETC at least, it is a pity that these facts are not settled and slow down the teams in their preparation (and as well the warmup-TO´s).

So what i ask you to do:

discuss the following topics in this thread so we can make sure there will be final captains-votes pretty soon!

1. Should there be an ETC-tournament-pack alongside with the eventually upcoming judges-pack? If so: should this be a standalon or does it make sense to adapt the official T9A-tournament-pack to the needs of ETC? (the T9A-pack btw is based on the ETC-pack-2016 and the T9A-team responsible for the pack is willing to adjust it to the needs of ETC so that finally both the T9A-non-ETC-players and the ETC-crowd can use the same package without messing around with some different details :)).

2. Maps: there is an official T9A-Map-Pack available that includes 30 Maps in total. I includes mostly slightly adjusted Maps from former ETC-Map-Packs or proposal-drafts for former ETC´s. Do you want 8 completely new maps or is it the captains wish than 8 maps from the map-pack are picked (at best in cooperation with the TO to make sure their terrain covers all the needs)? Or should there be a selection of proposals that can freely be handed in that we finally vote on?

3. important for Maps as well: should scenarios/deployment be pre-determined by the pairing-phase/maps like last year? Or do you want to follow the BRB that randomizes deployment and scenario at the beginning of every game? Since this has severe impact on the preparations of the teams this is the thing i feel like should be settled asap. Both has upsides and downsides .. but no matter how you captains decide on, we need a final call asap imo :)

I hope i could get this started and you captains feel the same as i do that this stuff needs to be settled asap that we can use this opportunity that T9A did the ETC-freeze that early this year. If this decisons last till end of april we won nothing by the early freeze and that would be a pity :)

Thanks for supporting this initiative in advance!

Cheers
Frederick

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Re: [ETC 2017] Tournament-Pack, Maps, Pairings & Scenarios

Postby Grayfox » Thu Mar 02, 2017 2:58 pm

Good initiative, Frederick! The Norwegian view, storting with the most important:

3: we believe secondary objective/scenario should be pre-determined in the pairing-phase/maps like last year. This worked wonderfully in Athens and saved time/confusion. while deployment type should follow specific tables randomized after pairing, just as in athens.

2: we want ETC to be as close to rulebook as possible. This includes using maps from 9th age map pack. As these maps are designed specifically for deployment type, we would like to keep this in Salamanca. For example extracting 2 maps from each of the 4 deployment types, for instance.

1: not sure, but important is that is it clear which secondary objective is linked to each pairing to each game. For example: first game first put out is hold ground, next is breakthrough, etcetera.

Regards,
Last edited by Grayfox on Wed Mar 15, 2017 11:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: [ETC 2017] Tournament-Pack, Maps, Pairings & Scenarios

Postby [AUT]ThEjOkEr » Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:37 pm

Frederick wrote:Dear Captains and Players,

as part of the T9A-team that is responsible for the official T9A-tournament-pack i contacted the Chairman "pizzaguardian" to ask him about the plans for Tournament-Pack, Maps, Pairings & Scenarios on the T9A-event of ETC 2017 in Salamanca.

As Marko just initiated a vote on a Judges-Pack we would like to integrate into the official T9A-tournament-pack, i asked him to set up several votes regarding the topics in the subject as well.

He pointed out, that there needes to be a discussion on this forum first, before the chairmen can set up any votes.


So let´s get this started before we waste much more time, since i know a lot of teams are desperately waiting for the final call on the subjects i mentioned (and since T9A is frozen until after ETC at least, it is a pity that these facts are not settled and slow down the teams in their preparation (and as well the warmup-TO´s).

So what i ask you to do:

discuss the following topics in this thread so we can make sure there will be final captains-votes pretty soon!

1. Should there be an ETC-tournament-pack alongside with the eventually upcoming judges-pack? If so: should this be a standalon or does it make sense to adapt the official T9A-tournament-pack to the needs of ETC? (the T9A-pack btw is based on the ETC-pack-2016 and the T9A-team responsible for the pack is willing to adjust it to the needs of ETC so that finally both the T9A-non-ETC-players and the ETC-crowd can use the same package without messing around with some different details :)).

2. Maps: there is an official T9A-Map-Pack available that includes 30 Maps in total. I includes mostly slightly adjusted Maps from former ETC-Map-Packs or proposal-drafts for former ETC´s. Do you want 8 completely new maps or is it the captains wish than 8 maps from the map-pack are picked (at best in cooperation with the TO to make sure their terrain covers all the needs)? Or should there be a selection of proposals that can freely be handed in that we finally vote on?

3. important for Maps as well: should scenarios/deployment be pre-determined by the pairing-phase/maps like last year? Or do you want to follow the BRB that randomizes deployment and scenario at the beginning of every game? Since this has severe impact on the preparations of the teams this is the thing i feel like should be settled asap. Both has upsides and downsides .. but no matter how you captains decide on, we need a final call asap imo :)

I hope i could get this started and you captains feel the same as i do that this stuff needs to be settled asap that we can use this opportunity that T9A did the ETC-freeze that early this year. If this decisons last till end of april we won nothing by the early freeze and that would be a pity :)

Thanks for supporting this initiative in advance!

Cheers
Frederick


@1: Yes definitely. Ideally it should be the official T9A pack
@2: Pick Maps from the existing map pack
@3: Both scenarios and deployment should be randomized at the start of the game (forces teams to bring less extreme all in lists and is the closest way to play in regards to the BRB). If there is an issue with the maps then the deployment should be linked to a table (there are specific maps for specific deployment types) but the scenario should always be randomized.

Having the ability to pair specific armies in specific scenarios (or better: avoiding specific scenarios) is actively sabotaging an important balance tools that incentives well rounded less all-in armies.
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Re: [ETC 2017] Tournament-Pack, Maps, Pairings & Scenarios

Postby Zaanash » Tue Mar 14, 2017 4:30 pm

Sweden would like to have things as close as possible to last year as we found that to be the most satisfying setup.

1. Use the official T9A-pack
2. Use official T9A-maps. Hopefully this can be arranged quickly before both ETC warmup in Germany/Denmark so that a preliminary map-pack can be generated before these tournaments and teams can give feedback on them. This way we should certainly have a great selection of maps in Salamanca.
3. Randomized maporder in matchups after pairing, with scenarios rotating depending on the current round
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Re: [ETC 2017] Tournament-Pack, Maps, Pairings & Scenarios

Postby eggsPR » Wed Mar 15, 2017 3:33 pm

Team USA votes same as what Sweden proposed:

1. Use the official T9A-pack
2. Use official T9A-maps. Hopefully this can be arranged quickly before both ETC warmup in Germany/Denmark so that a preliminary map-pack can be generated before these tournaments and teams can give feedback on them. This way we should certainly have a great selection of maps in Salamanca.
3. Randomized maporder in matchups after pairing, with scenarios rotating depending on the current round
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Re: [ETC 2017] Tournament-Pack, Maps, Pairings & Scenarios

Postby mike newman » Wed Mar 15, 2017 6:10 pm

Team England votes the same as Sweden and USA
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Re: [ETC 2017] Tournament-Pack, Maps, Pairings & Scenarios

Postby Krokz » Thu Mar 16, 2017 10:23 pm

[AUT]ThEjOkEr wrote:@3: Both scenarios and deployment should be randomized at the start of the game (forces teams to bring less extreme all in lists and is the closest way to play in regards to the BRB). If there is an issue with the maps then the deployment should be linked to a table (there are specific maps for specific deployment types) but the scenario should always be randomized.
I think this is extremely important part where ETC has failed in the past years. Scenarios should be randomized since that is core part of the game balance as developers envisioned.
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Re: [ETC 2017] Tournament-Pack, Maps, Pairings & Scenarios

Postby orion 76 » Fri Mar 17, 2017 4:47 pm

I completely disagree with that if its for a team event.
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Re: [ETC 2017] Tournament-Pack, Maps, Pairings & Scenarios

Postby DanT » Sat Mar 18, 2017 10:15 am

It's just a choice of what you want the strategy to be.
Do you want the strategy to be about how a team builds lists to be aimed into certain scenarios?
Or do you want the strategy to be about teams bringing lists that can play all the scenarios?

Both are valid, with different pros and cons.
As it happens, I prefer the second, as I think it gives greater interaction between the players.
Being able to design lists to play specific scenarios runs the risk of reducing the interaction in certain cases, because the list may have been optimised to play the scenario, rather than the game.

Personally, I would want to have every table playing say breakthrough in the first round, then hold ground in the second round...etc. This can be announced in advance (before list submission) so that players know which scenarios they will be playing and in which order. This reduces the chance that some unlucky rolls can have a big effect on a player's tournament.

Then, as an earlier poster said, the deployment type should be linked to the tables (2 of each deployment type across the 8 tables). Once the pairings are finished, it can then be randomised (as usual) which match plays on which table.

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Re: [ETC 2017] Tournament-Pack, Maps, Pairings & Scenarios

Postby Grayfox » Sun Mar 19, 2017 8:48 am

Looks like we need a vote on whether scenarios should be pre-determined before pairing or randomized afterwards. Soon rather than later, IMO.

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Re: [ETC 2017] Tournament-Pack, Maps, Pairings & Scenarios

Postby Dim » Wed Mar 22, 2017 4:57 pm

Team Switzerland votes for the determination of scenario by pairing.
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Re: [ETC 2017] Tournament-Pack, Maps, Pairings & Scenarios

Postby Frederick » Wed Mar 29, 2017 10:16 pm

the version 1.0 of the official tournament-pack just got uploaded on the T9A-rules-section.

based on this is prepared a short document with propoals for ETC 2017 regarding tournament-pack, maps, deployment and secondary objectives - i set this up that this can be used as a template for a vote, if the chairmen are willing to go with what i proposed.

Here you can find the PDF with the proposed VOTE



I do not want to set pressure on this matter but as the main TO for the upcoming ETC-Warmup in Germany end of April i would love to see this settled asap to make sure we can use the exact ETC-setup for the Warmup as well ... so this is my headsup why i´m interfering with what the chairmen are working on atm ;)

No matter what i´m also playing the ETC this year myself and i´m more than aware that many teams a desperately waiting for a final take on this matters to have a proper preparation. Especially since the freeze of the rules has been announced long ago being in a limbo on matters that interact with team-setup and list-building is pretty annoying :)

I hope my work is appreciated and helps a bit on this side.

Cheers
Frederick

(sorry for the crappy wording btw - i´d be more than happy if somebody could help out so get the document into a proper shape, wording and form :))

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Re: [ETC 2017] Tournament-Pack, Maps, Pairings & Scenarios

Postby orion 76 » Wed Mar 29, 2017 10:43 pm

Yes, can we please have a vote and get this out of the way if possible?? Its almost April and we need this done asap. We really need to know what maps were going to be practicing on.
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Re: [ETC 2017] Tournament-Pack, Maps, Pairings & Scenarios

Postby pizzaguardian » Thu Mar 30, 2017 11:22 am

Is everybody ok with proposed voting package? If so i will start a vote either tonight or tomorrow night.
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Re: [ETC 2017] Tournament-Pack, Maps, Pairings & Scenarios

Postby el rey » Thu Mar 30, 2017 11:48 am

Krokz wrote:
[AUT]ThEjOkEr wrote:@3: Both scenarios and deployment should be randomized at the start of the game (forces teams to bring less extreme all in lists and is the closest way to play in regards to the BRB). If there is an issue with the maps then the deployment should be linked to a table (there are specific maps for specific deployment types) but the scenario should always be randomized.
I think this is extremely important part where ETC has failed in the past years. Scenarios should be randomized since that is core part of the game balance as developers envisioned.


Team Denmark agree with this. We might get less extreme list made to do only one thing and more fun games, that actually needs to be played to be determined. :)
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Re: [ETC 2017] Tournament-Pack, Maps, Pairings & Scenarios

Postby DanT » Thu Mar 30, 2017 3:54 pm

Sorry to be difficult Fred, but I don't like the two options for the secondary objective.
I will try to briefly explain why, but maybe it doesn't matter; it depends if many people agree with me!

Basically, I think the options are (bad version of randomising) and (bad version of fixed).
A) The random version is very random. At least one round of the tournament will be decided by the 8 dice rolls to determine which scenarios are being played. It also means that the scenarios aren't known at the point that the pairings are done (which might affect a players' relative predictions against the 8 armies in the opposing team).
B) The fixed version in the vote allows teams to design armies for certain scenarios, and pair those armies into those scenarios. This has been pointed out by others in this thread.

An example (intended to be illustrative, rather than a perfect solution) of an alternative would be to fix in advance what scenario is played in each round (this would be known before list submission).
So, for example, every single table in the hall plays breakthrough in round one, secure target in round two, and so on.

Equally, there could be a random version of this, where the organisers roll a dice at the start of each round (before the pairings) and again, every match in the hall plays that scenario.

Again, apologies for being difficult, I just feel like the choice here misses the point of some of the "random" vs "fixed" debate.

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Re: [ETC 2017] Tournament-Pack, Maps, Pairings & Scenarios

Postby Frederick » Thu Mar 30, 2017 4:13 pm

well, i get your point a bit although i think this discussion took place quiet often in the last years and all time ETC ended up using either random, none or predefined scenarios as i proposed in my vote-proposal.


i based my vote-proposal on the discussion/feedback that took place in this thread. Only the two options of fixed or randomized have been requested. The ones asking for randomized did so because it is true to the 9th-Age-Rulebook and the one asking for fix-objectives did so because it worked well last ETC.

I had no indications to include option C in my proposal and no captain asked for that option to be considered up to now :)

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Re: [ETC 2017] Tournament-Pack, Maps, Pairings & Scenarios

Postby DanT » Thu Mar 30, 2017 5:29 pm

No worries. I'll keep quiet and let people vote then... :P

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Re: [ETC 2017] Tournament-Pack, Maps, Pairings & Scenarios

Postby theoden » Thu Mar 30, 2017 5:39 pm

Guys,

Can we finalize it as quickly as we can?..:)

As Turkish Team we prefer last year's system used in Athens for all three articles. We think the system was proper and great in Athens..

Thanks..

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Re: [ETC 2017] Tournament-Pack, Maps, Pairings & Scenarios

Postby Grayfox » Thu Mar 30, 2017 8:51 pm

Team Norway fully supports The rule pack That Frederick has presented.

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Re: [ETC 2017] Tournament-Pack, Maps, Pairings & Scenarios

Postby mike newman » Fri Mar 31, 2017 6:50 am

Team England backs Fred's proposed pdf for a vote

The sooner we can get this resolved the better as we believe it will help Marko and the team in making a referee packs that sets out penalties for not abiding to the standards set in the tournament pack, and how they will be policed/enforced
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Re: [ETC 2017] Tournament-Pack, Maps, Pairings & Scenarios

Postby Zaanash » Fri Mar 31, 2017 8:59 am

Team Sweden support Fred's proposal
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Re: [ETC 2017] Tournament-Pack, Maps, Pairings & Scenarios

Postby SirProxALot » Fri Mar 31, 2017 9:59 am

Team Germany backs a vote as soon as possible and agrees supports Fredericks proposal!
Thanks in advance guys!
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Re: [ETC 2017] Tournament-Pack, Maps, Pairings & Scenarios

Postby pizzaguardian » Fri Mar 31, 2017 10:02 am

There doesn't seem to be any major disagreements. A vote will be started tonight.
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Re: [ETC 2017] Tournament-Pack, Maps, Pairings & Scenarios

Postby orion 76 » Fri Mar 31, 2017 2:34 pm

Just read the following at the end of the 1.0 version of the tournament pack under the Team event section:


The maximum amount of battle points per round is 60/100 and the minimum amount of battle points per round is 40/60 for 8/5 man team, with the exception of the last round. In the last round all battle points are counted towards the final result.

I highly disagree with what is highlited in bold.
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Re: [ETC 2017] Tournament-Pack, Maps, Pairings & Scenarios

Postby mike newman » Fri Mar 31, 2017 6:17 pm

orion 76 wrote:Just read the following at the end of the 1.0 version of the tournament pack under the Team event section:


The maximum amount of battle points per round is 60/100 and the minimum amount of battle points per round is 40/60 for 8/5 man team, with the exception of the last round. In the last round all battle points are counted towards the final result.

I highly disagree with what is highlited in bold.



Agreed. Can this be added to the vote please
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Re: [ETC 2017] Tournament-Pack, Maps, Pairings & Scenarios

Postby Frederick » Fri Mar 31, 2017 7:34 pm

good idea. this sneaked in some way i cannnot backtrack properly ;)

if the vote on this will be clear enough it would not even be a problem to adjust the tournament-pack according to the decision.


This is btw. the least stressing issue we have with the vote - this can easiely be voted on seperately afterwards if needed, since it has imo almost no effect on team-setup and rosters ;)

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Re: [ETC 2017] Tournament-Pack, Maps, Pairings & Scenarios

Postby pizzaguardian » Fri Mar 31, 2017 7:39 pm

i don't want to bother with endless voting and i would like to think none of you guys either.

Preparing the vote now, should be up in a few minutes.
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Re: [ETC 2017] Tournament-Pack, Maps, Pairings & Scenarios

Postby Furion » Sat Apr 01, 2017 7:28 am

Who offended logic and reason by suggesting dropping the cap in final rund?
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Re: [ETC 2017] Tournament-Pack, Maps, Pairings & Scenarios

Postby pizzaguardian » Mon Apr 03, 2017 9:07 am

Peoples,

The voting has started and yet there isn't a single vote cast. Lets get a move on.


viewtopic.php?f=18&t=136229
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