Is many artifacts in every list the intent of the game?

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eriktheguy
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Is many artifacts in every list the intent of the game?

Postby eriktheguy » Fri May 13, 2016 4:50 pm

I've played a couple of KoW games with my WHFB friends using the free basic rules. We love that the list building is fast, the tactics are way less gamey, and the games take about an hour and a half. We love that spears are actually effective against cavalry and that there are no unkillable heroes.

Basically we like all the things about KoW that make it different from WHFB. We still enjoy WHFB, but we see the advantages of KoW's design philosophy and enjoy the type of game that its rules create.

So I was a bit surprised to see the magic items section the 2e rulebook. It seems like a lot of these are really good, and several seem like mandatory picks. If I have a horde of archers, I don't see any reason not to give them Piercing(1) for only 30pts. If I have an expensive Cav unit, I don't see why anyone wouldn't give them the caterpillar potion. If I have an expensive combat hero, giving them a 6+ Defense score seems pretty much mandatory.

Most of the lists I see posted have a magic item on almost every horde or character.
Do they make a big difference in how the game is played?
Do they make it more like Warhammer?
Do they encourage auto-include list choices?
unkillable characters?
complicated army lists full of surprises for opponents who haven't memorized the books?

Just curious about how this plays out with more experienced gamers, because my group isn't sure we even want to use these and I can't find much discussion about it via google (other than some stuff from the beta).

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Re: Is many artifacts in every list the intent of the game?

Postby Nibbles » Fri May 13, 2016 6:10 pm

eriktheguy wrote:
Most of the lists I see posted have a magic item on almost every horde or character.
Do they make a big difference in how the game is played?
Do they make it more like Warhammer?
Do they encourage auto-include list choices?
unkillable characters?
complicated army lists full of surprises for opponents who haven't memorized the books?

Just curious about how this plays out with more experienced gamers, because my group isn't sure we even want to use these and I can't find much discussion about it via google (other than some stuff from the beta).


-Yes, they can make a big difference, and some lists benefit more from magic items than others.

-It's part of the skill of the player how they assign the items, just like it was in Warhammer FB, but in my opinion KoW's item system is much better.

-No, the items don't encourage auto-include list choices as you can't simply have every good combination out there at the same time. In general I see players swapping items and experimenting with them when not playing a tournament with fixed lists. In an Elven tournament list, a Dragon riding hero is generally seen as somewhat of an auto-include, but that is not due to some broken magic item.

-The items do not make characters unkillable, everything has counters and everything can be killed, it does not matter much if your Dragon riding hero has 6+ Def if he is surrounded by Hordes or even Regiments. Two Regiments with CS(2) from the side could sweep such a hero away in one turn. These sort of characters tend to survive well due to their increased mobility from flying, not because they would have something silly like a 1+ re-rollable save & a 3+ ward save on top. Remember that saves don't even exist in this game.

-In general the lists are not full of surprises since the standard rules tell us to play with open lists, so that requires us to explain our units and items to our opponent.
I do respect your opinions even when I do not state so, we are all free to disagree and agree here. And I certainly do not assume that my ideas about the rules would be the only proper ones. We all have our own ways for playing these games and that is fine.

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Re: Is many artifacts in every list the intent of the game?

Postby spikyandy » Sat May 14, 2016 8:42 am

Nibbles pretty much covers it all with his post. I think that because you can only take one magic item it really forces you to think which one, some would appear as a no brainer (piercing on horde of elf archers is the only no brainer I can think of) but another magic item could always benefit it more. I put the potion of the caterpillar on my knights to give them freedom of movement, however, in combat I would rather have given them Blessing of the Gods to give them elite. It's a trade off I had to make which in WHFB you often didn't have to make. Terrain did little to knights, especially monstrous cavalry, and most of them had a bucket of special rules to overcome any inherent weaknesses.
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Re: Is many artifacts in every list the intent of the game?

Postby eriktheguy » Sat May 14, 2016 6:54 pm

Thanks for the feedback, I'll give it a shot then.

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Re: Is many artifacts in every list the intent of the game?

Postby Nibbles » Mon May 16, 2016 11:36 pm

spikyandy wrote: (piercing on horde of elf archers is the only no brainer I can think of) but another magic item could always benefit it more.


Yep, like the "+1 to hit with ranged attacks" magic item, and then just hit the archer unit with Bane Chant.. That's what I've done sometimes. :mrgreen:

I mean, I don't always play with Elves, but when I do; I'm a pointy ear supremacist scumbag. :wink:
I do respect your opinions even when I do not state so, we are all free to disagree and agree here. And I certainly do not assume that my ideas about the rules would be the only proper ones. We all have our own ways for playing these games and that is fine.

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Re: Is many artifacts in every list the intent of the game?

Postby spikyandy » Tue May 17, 2016 11:27 am

Nibbles wrote:
spikyandy wrote: (piercing on horde of elf archers is the only no brainer I can think of) but another magic item could always benefit it more.


Yep, like the "+1 to hit with ranged attacks" magic item, and then just hit the archer unit with Bane Chant.. That's what I've done sometimes. :mrgreen:

I mean, I don't always play with Elves, but when I do; I'm a pointy ear supremacist scumbag. :wink:


Trust me not to read elf spells, even more options making it not so much of a no brainer. The +1 to hit with range attacks would also be cool on them.
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Re: Is many artifacts in every list the intent of the game?

Postby BrotherKane » Thu May 19, 2016 8:25 am

I think it also has the advantage of adding variety to people's lists. If there is a good unit you often see two or three of them in a list. Add magic items and suddenly they aren't all the same so they can't be used exactly the same way.

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Re: Is many artifacts in every list the intent of the game?

Postby Nibbles » Thu May 19, 2016 4:57 pm

BrotherKane wrote:I think it also has the advantage of adding variety to people's lists. If there is a good unit you often see two or three of them in a list. Add magic items and suddenly they aren't all the same so they can't be used exactly the same way.


Indeed, and these good units can't simply be combined together to form a massive horde either, they often have size restrictions. So the default army structure is all about variety! In Warhammer 8th if you had 60 White Lions/etc. you didn't take 3x units of 20 with different magic banners on each unit. No, you took that one unit and gave it that single best magic banner, and this became quite boring after a while.
I do respect your opinions even when I do not state so, we are all free to disagree and agree here. And I certainly do not assume that my ideas about the rules would be the only proper ones. We all have our own ways for playing these games and that is fine.

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Re: Is many artifacts in every list the intent of the game?

Postby The Nick » Sat May 21, 2016 1:01 pm

Magic items are powerful, but not so powerful and inexpensive to be "free" to throw them into a unit.

A 150 point unit grabbing a 30 point upgrade is increasing its score by 20%. If you throw a magical item into every unit, you might have some powerful units, but you're giving up the ability to take two or three additional units. I outdeploy all the other players in the club because I take almost no magical items - I miss out on some good combos, but there's something to be said about a quality to quantity.

Also, any potential combination of unit and magic item has a cheap counter (a single hero on a horse throwing a single wound on that 4+/Pierce(2) unit means it has to rely on counter-charging now. Very unfortunate.). Having a few extra units on the field lets you field a variety of potential counters.
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Re: Is many artifacts in every list the intent of the game?

Postby Darklord » Wed Jun 08, 2016 10:09 am

While some Magic Artefacts are good, you tend to find new players using a lot and more experienced players bringing additional units instead. It's not that the artefacts aren't good, but having additional units can sometimes be better.

I tend to design my armies with the units I want, then see how many points are left, and use those for Artefacts.

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