Tournament comp discussion.

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dreadlord
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Tournament comp discussion.

Postby dreadlord » Tue Dec 22, 2015 2:16 pm

Hi.

Wondering what everyone thinks about possible tourny comping for kow in the future.

I accidentally managed to start a discussion of this in the event list but have moved it here so it doesn't clog up the actual tourny listing thread.

Here is what has been said so far.

dreadlord wrote:
BrotherKane wrote:
dreadlord wrote:I do hope by pack that you only mean which scenario's we will be playing, if any, this games armies are already so well balanced with allies included in the list that there is no need for a comp, long may that continue.


Apart from hordes of shooting and dragons!


Sorry I didn't explain myself very well. By well balanced I mean't that pretty much every army build has access to similar troop types, roughly of the same points values. It does mean everyone has access to dragons and shooting, but is that such a bad thing? Alternatively it could be comped quite simply with a blanket only one dragon , 40 shots allowed or something similar but what for?

The reason wfb was comped was because the army books were so wildly out of sync with each other, one being massively overpowered, another so weak it was virtually unplayable at an event so armies or certain figures would be packed away for years until suddenly with a new book they were playable again.

The kow army list are different, but also very similar, makes for a very level playing field which means a comp is not required in my opinion. If it ain't broken, you don't need to fix it. Well kow is far from broken is it, quite the opposite, leave well alone and rather than players thinking they can gain control of the game, which was actually needed for wfb as it was badly written by gw (deliberately so in my opinion), and lets just enjoy this rather fun game as is.



Grim1 wrote:I am more concerned that it could become worse than wfb unless comped.
The races are quite balanced but their units are less so, (regiments of infantry for example).
Every list has it's "best" unit options/combinations, and there are no core/special/rare restrictions.
Tournaments could become very "gamey" with game-busting new-army gimmicks being the only thing bringing any variety to the tournament scene.
Imagine facing d2+1 missile hordes, with d2+1 warmachines, and d2+1 dragonlords (plus d2 random regiments and heroes) almost every battle you play. It could happen. And for the odd time that you didn't you met 3 hordes with
I was hoping to see more troops and regiments (like in a regular army), but hordes (infantry & missile) and superflyguys may soon become ubiquitous (my fancy word for the day).
I mean, I brought 2 dragonlords and 1 missile horde and thought I was being a bit "gamey".
It wasn't long before I that I shouldn't have felt guilty since I was nowhere near as "bad" when compared to the average competition list.



dreadlord wrote:You make some good points actually, my list is becoming exactly as you have laid it out, more or less. I guess if everyone os able to field an uber list that is all we will see.

Any comp will have to be well thought out however. Perhaps mantic themselves should take a hand in the process? Some type of tourny comp list from the makers themselves would seem like a good idea.

I am a bit worried this discussion might take this thread over, I will put a new thread on the kow discussion thread in case anyone else wants to throw their idea's about this in the ring.

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Re: Tournament comp discussion.

Postby Badrott » Tue Dec 22, 2015 5:22 pm

The simple solution would be to comp via scenario rather than list build.

The next most simple step is to stop flyers and monsters from capturing objectivers or counting towards them.

Shooting units arent all that bad I dont think as they cant come forward and capture objectives.

I am in the process of making up some new scenarios for my events (which will be tested).

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Re: Tournament comp discussion.

Postby Baragash » Tue Dec 22, 2015 8:16 pm

The Rules Committee are tracking the talk coming out of tournaments and will be making adjustments through the Official Tournament Pack, which in theory will be issued annually. Adjustments to flyers are in the works.

It would be helpful if you left feedback on the Mantic Forum to influence this.
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Re: Tournament comp discussion.

Postby Nibbles » Tue Dec 29, 2015 9:29 pm

Mantic Forums were migrated a while ago, I'm one of the people that have been unable to access them ever since that happened. At first they were down for the duration of the migration, and now Chrome says there's a redirecting loop on the page.
I do respect your opinions even when I do not state so, we are all free to disagree and agree here. And I certainly do not assume that my ideas about the rules would be the only proper ones. We all have our own ways for playing these games and that is fine.

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Re: Tournament comp discussion.

Postby Frederique » Wed Dec 30, 2015 7:47 am

I cleared my browser history (cookies and information) and hit refresh, then it worked.
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Re: Tournament comp discussion.

Postby Baragash » Wed Dec 30, 2015 9:10 am

Same. I use Chrome on 4 different systems (my laptop, work desktop, iPad, iPhone) and clearing everything but the passwords worked on all of them - though I gather some instances of Chrome can have complications.
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Re: Tournament comp discussion.

Postby Nibbles » Fri Jan 01, 2016 1:56 pm

Ok, good to know it was just on my end then. :)
I do respect your opinions even when I do not state so, we are all free to disagree and agree here. And I certainly do not assume that my ideas about the rules would be the only proper ones. We all have our own ways for playing these games and that is fine.

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Re: Tournament comp discussion.

Postby Lord Inquisitor » Fri Jan 01, 2016 7:46 pm

It's still a bit early to really be able to speak with any real confidence, but these seem to have the lead in the "what needs to be comped" list.

  • Some magic items are definitely particularly attractive. Ensorcelled Armour (+1 De for character) is an auto-take on any dragon rider, although Regen 5+ is up there too. Potion of the Caterpillar (pathfinder) for cavalry is an auto-take, although arguably it is needed to make cav worthwhile. +1 shooting on powerful shooting hordes, particularly Ogre Shooters or Guardian Archers. Otherwise the items are surprisingly well balanced and all have uses.
  • Powerful individuals. Vampires, pharaohs (with Wings of Honeymaze), Abyssal Champs, etc. The undead are the worst offenders here, but powerful combat characters with Fly, Regen and/or Vanguard are a pest. They're almost unkillable in the hands of a good player and require little thought in terms of objectives (they have such movement, they can simply jump wherever needed, particularly invade or dominate scenarios).
  • Powerful fliers. Both flying units and flying monsters combine hard-hitting unit and great mobility and can score on objectives.

I've also seen some events run a "rule of three" so no more than 3 of any given unit. This discourages certain extreme builds based around spamming certain units. Six Elohi hordes, for example, or the Ogre warlock battery (as many warlocks and beserkers as you can fit in). But in general the best lists don't spam certain units or would otherwise easily adapt to the rule of three.

I am not a fan of allies, I dislike it aesthetically for the most part and I think it makes armies too homogenous. It's too easy to go for a unit of Ogre shooters, or Drakon riders. It does level the playing field a lot though.

Limiting how units score might well be the best form of comp to begin with. If fliers and individuals couldn't score for objectives, I think that would dramatically change army composition. That might be going too far on fliers and I'd be concerned about making gunlines too attractive but it's an idea. It depends on how much the alluded-to changes to fliers will affect them. As for characters it will probably not put people off the flying pharaoh but it'd be a start.

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Re: Tournament comp discussion.

Postby Nibbles » Wed Jan 06, 2016 2:02 am

I don't feel that Undead Heroes are particularly the worst offenders, maybe if they are combined with an army composed of spammed elite regiments? The usual units of Ghouls, Skeletons and Zombies are so weak that they kind of need strong heroes to support them. These poor units aren't so cheap either that they'd benefit from being spammed to the extent that they become an auto-winning force in some scenarios, like they were in Warhammer FB.

Could we use the Regiment/Horde unlock thing inherent in KoW and add further limitations to it? By making certain elite units NOT unlock Heroes for example, some extreme builds could be avoided? This might feel a bit complicated, but I think it'd be better than going back to the old 0-1, 0-2 selection style which made ETC so suffocating on the long run.
I do respect your opinions even when I do not state so, we are all free to disagree and agree here. And I certainly do not assume that my ideas about the rules would be the only proper ones. We all have our own ways for playing these games and that is fine.

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Re: Tournament comp discussion.

Postby Frederique » Wed Jan 06, 2016 10:44 am

Here are two house rules I will enforce in the next tournament:

1. Hero / Hero (Monster) can not pick up or claim objectives in the Loot and Pillage scenarios, and their points do not count in Invade and Dominate scenarios.

2. Bane Chant bonuses do not stack with each other, and also does not stack with Heart Seeking Chant.

These I think will do a lot of good, without limiting too much or micromanaging.
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Re: Tournament comp discussion.

Postby Jez [Skewtooth] » Wed Jan 06, 2016 11:01 am

Frederique wrote:2. Bane Chant bonuses do not stack with each other


No need for a house rule on this, they don't anyway.

Note that multiple bane-chants hitting the same unit do not have cumulative effects.

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Re: Tournament comp discussion.

Postby Frederique » Wed Jan 06, 2016 12:22 pm

Ooh, nice. Thanks for clearing that up.

Then it only needs to be:
Bane Chant does not stack with Heart Seeking Chant.
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Re: Tournament comp discussion.

Postby silashand » Fri Jan 08, 2016 5:31 pm

Baragash wrote:The Rules Committee are tracking the talk coming out of tournaments and will be making adjustments through the Official Tournament Pack, which in theory will be issued annually. Adjustments to flyers are in the works.

It would be helpful if you left feedback on the Mantic Forum to influence this.


The RC also follows and posts to the Kings of War Fanatics Facebook page as well, though it's not as easy to follow individual threads.
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Re: Tournament comp discussion.

Postby Baragash » Sat Jan 09, 2016 1:48 pm

silashand wrote:
Baragash wrote:The Rules Committee are tracking the talk coming out of tournaments and will be making adjustments through the Official Tournament Pack, which in theory will be issued annually. Adjustments to flyers are in the works.

It would be helpful if you left feedback on the Mantic Forum to influence this.


The RC also follows and posts to the Kings of War Fanatics Facebook page as well, though it's not as easy to follow individual threads.


Well yes, we do, and this week we did see something that triggered discussion in our private group. It's just a lot easier to collate/find feedback on the Mantic forum or where TOs have helpfully sent us things like top 3 army lists and feedback from the players.
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Re: Tournament comp discussion.

Postby silashand » Sat Jan 09, 2016 6:25 pm

Baragash wrote:Well yes, we do, and this week we did see something that triggered discussion in our private group. It's just a lot easier to collate/find feedback on the Mantic forum or where TOs have helpfully sent us things like top 3 army lists and feedback from the players.


Oh I understand completely. I was just pointing folks to FB if that was their preferred online mechanism is all.
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6 x 9 = 42

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Re: Tournament comp discussion.

Postby Nibbles » Wed Jan 13, 2016 11:14 pm

I hope the first official tournament comp pack comes soon! The game is balanced well but the first round in any tournament tends to be the worst when it comes to match-ups. I'm sure the comp pack will help to eliminate this annoyance. :)
I do respect your opinions even when I do not state so, we are all free to disagree and agree here. And I certainly do not assume that my ideas about the rules would be the only proper ones. We all have our own ways for playing these games and that is fine.

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Re: Tournament comp discussion.

Postby Baragash » Thu Jan 14, 2016 9:29 am

The official "Tournament Suggestions Pack"* has been agreed based on data we've had so far, release data has not been agreed but at present it feels like a mid-Q2 release.

*As far as we're concerned it will be the House Rules for official Mantic events, and our suggestion for everyone else as to what we think will improve the event experience.

Funnily enough a new suggestion has actually come through as I've been typing this post, so we're still taking feedback ;)
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Re: Tournament comp discussion.

Postby lordgoober » Fri Jan 15, 2016 6:55 am

That seems like a good time frame. It probably makes sense to wait until after the tournaments that are happening at Adepticon and another big one happening that same weekend in Texas as I remember hearing.

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Re: Tournament comp discussion.

Postby Baragash » Fri Jan 15, 2016 9:43 am

lordgoober wrote:That seems like a good time frame. It probably makes sense to wait until after the tournaments that are happening at Adepticon and another big one happening that same weekend in Texas as I remember hearing.


Probably. Several play testers play at Adepticon and two of the RC have bought tickets for Lonewolf (Texas). The new COO was talking about flying over to Adepticon but that was before he got the job so I don't know if it's still happening.
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