KOW ETC ? ideas and proposals

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Re: KOW ETC ? ideas and proposals

Postby Hofferber » Mon Sep 21, 2015 12:09 pm

Joker wrote:Problem is not to invite KoW community to participate, problem is to persuade actual ETC community (and especially WFB community) to add KoW in the ETC...


I know, Only I talk about my experience in Spain with players. In the last months to many people try to play KoW, we did to much demos across the summer (around 2 demo days every week) and for any demo more people are interested in the game. As Pathfinder my work it's teach the people to play the game, but for me is my game since I read the first beta :-)

We are open to teach to anyone that who wants to try kings of War.
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Re: KOW ETC ? ideas and proposals

Postby Snake1311 » Mon Sep 21, 2015 4:16 pm

Joker wrote:Problem is not to invite KoW community to participate, problem is to persuade actual ETC community (and especially WFB community) to add KoW in the ETC...


I think the differences in speed of play will be an issue in practicality + breach in tradition for some, which will bring up some resistance.

Frankly, tables can't go above 6x4 for space concerns. Even if they could (at the expense of reducing team size from 8 to 6 for example, and keeping the table rows the same length), the kind of army size that requires 8x4 playing field becomes extremely impractical for international travel. This means KoW is capped at 2500 points, so thats as far as the "macro" element goes.

In terms of additions to game depth, while we can push for certain iterations which don't breach the design brief, they will likely mostly impact listbuilding rather than actual game time. So thats 2 hours for games, with the usual half hour for pairing.

This isn't a "Doom & Gloom" kind of post, more of a realisation that if we are talking KoW at the ETC, we are looking at 9 games over the three days rather than the usual 6. I think it may be worth thinking about pros and cons of that change for a bit.

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Re: KOW ETC ? ideas and proposals

Postby Edroulfo » Mon Sep 21, 2015 10:54 pm

I think 2000 pts are awesome for KoW.
Also, instead of traditional Swiss system we can make a sports-like tournament with Groups, 16, quarterfinals,semifinals and a final ( and games for classification of the eliminated teams).
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Re: KOW ETC ? ideas and proposals

Postby blackfang » Tue Sep 22, 2015 10:53 am

Having seen the way the ETC people operate, I don't feel like anything good for KoW will come from giving them everything they want on a silver platter. The ETC mindset already ruined my local WHFB scene long before AoS came along. They changed Warhammer into the game they want to play, at the expense of everything else.

They drove away beginners - from refusing to play them (because they need to practice for the ETC all year long and teaching a beginner doesn't help them along) to actually throwing beginners out of the store (because we need the table to practice for the ETC, you stupid kids!) Before the ETC, we used to have dozens of regular players. We now have trouble getting enough players for a team together - the old farts eventually quit and there is no new generation of players, because new people were clearly not welcome.

The 40k group is heading down this exact same path now, with a few years' lag. Warmachine already died for much the same reasons.

Now there are serious talks of the ETC getting their own Kings of Warhammer edition, taking away resources from everyone to cater to a small group that poisons the community. Woe unto Mantic if they think trying to sell the game to a few hundred ETC players is worth splitting the player base, and in the long run turning away everyone who doesn't want to "practice for the ETC" all the time.

Mantic would be better served trying to grow their game from the bottom up like usual and not bend over backwards to have it declared as the official game of the ETC, ordaining from above how the game is meant to be played to the entire community.

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Re: KOW ETC ? ideas and proposals

Postby Gojira » Tue Sep 22, 2015 11:04 am

blackfang wrote:Having seen the way the ETC people operate, I don't feel like anything good for KoW will come from giving them everything they want on a silver platter. The ETC mindset already ruined my local WHFB scene long before AoS came along. They changed Warhammer into the game they want to play, at the expense of everything else. They drove away beginners - from refusing to play them (because they need to practice for the ETC all year long and teaching a beginner doesn't help them along) to actually throwing beginners out of the store (because we need the table to practice for the ETC, you stupid kids!)

Now there are serious talks of the ETC getting their own Kings of Warhammer edition, taking away resources from everyone to cater to a small group that poisons the community. Woe unto Mantic if they think trying to sell the game to a few hundred ETC players is worth splitting the player base, and in the long run turning away everyone who doesn't want to "practice for the ETC" all the time.

Mantic would be better served trying to grow their game from the bottom up like usual and not bend over backwards to have it declared as the official game of the ETC, ordaining from above how the game is meant to be played to the entire community.



Have you ever heard the expression, painting everyone with the same brush? I'm a
sorry tour club is full of clowns, but this is far from the standard from ETC players. Our club for example is mostly ETC players, but people can play warhammer with whatever comp they like. If I judged the 40k system or warmahordes based on a bunch of people and applied this across the whole community, then more fool me.

Mantic have been trying to crack the ETC for years, so this is not some conspiracy theory to try and convert everyone to one way the ETC way. They've also said they want to publish a ETC edition of KoW. Which will be pretty small containing the modifications. So KoW proper/standard/etc, will srill exist as the main game. You have nothing to fear as long as you remember not to judge everyone based on a small few.
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Re: KOW ETC ? ideas and proposals

Postby Snake1311 » Tue Sep 22, 2015 12:12 pm

ETC is one of the main reasons the hobby is even present in Bulgaria, small as it is. Its ETC players that advertise it, set up events and tournaments, teach new players, and even import the damn stuff.

"The ETC mindset ruined my local scene" - errr, so the 8 ETC players (if all of them live in the same place and play at the same club, unlikely) drove away dozens (like, 30+) of regulars? I just find that highly unlikely, even if the two groups didn't like playing against each other.


Also, not everyone supporting KoW for ETC is discussing major changes. The ETC extra release would be something between a tournament pack (explaining how the game would work in a team setting) and small expansion adding a small amount of options (if that is deemed necessary). I don't see why it would interfere with the core game, i.e. you should be able to play an ETC-KoW vs a vanilla-KoW army game.

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Re: KOW ETC ? ideas and proposals

Postby Choonvoon » Tue Sep 22, 2015 1:30 pm

The point made about compatibility with regular KoW is important to sustain the game at the local level.

Etc 8th became so arcane that most new players were beaten by the faqs then by tactics.
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Re: KOW ETC ? ideas and proposals

Postby Choonvoon » Tue Sep 22, 2015 1:30 pm

The point made about compatibility with regular KoW is important to sustain the game at the local level.

Etc 8th became so arcane that most new players were beaten by the faqs then by tactics.
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Re: KOW ETC ? ideas and proposals

Postby Frederique » Tue Sep 22, 2015 5:48 pm

Well said =D>
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Re: KOW ETC ? ideas and proposals

Postby Nibbles » Wed Sep 23, 2015 11:19 am

blackfang wrote:Having seen the way the ETC people operate, I don't feel like anything good for KoW will come from giving them everything they want on a silver platter. The ETC mindset already ruined my local WHFB scene long before AoS came along. They changed Warhammer into the game they want to play, at the expense of everything else.

They drove away beginners - from refusing to play them (because they need to practice for the ETC all year long and teaching a beginner doesn't help them along) to actually throwing beginners out of the store (because we need the table to practice for the ETC, you stupid kids!) Before the ETC, we used to have dozens of regular players. We now have trouble getting enough players for a team together - the old farts eventually quit and there is no new generation of players, because new people were clearly not welcome.

The 40k group is heading down this exact same path now, with a few years' lag. Warmachine already died for much the same reasons.



I have seen this phenomenon as well(the most competitive ETC people driving away newbies by forming cliques and behaving as cliques do). The natural backlash was that people started inventing their own comp packs to oppose ETC. The result of this was that not enough of the base game was played and therefore the flow of newbies to the hobby was reduced to a trickle. Of course the river had already been dammed up by GW with the high cost of entry and let's not forget how they caused the ETC to pop into existence in the first place by introducing balance ruining power creep to the game in 7th edition. Back then ETC was simply great.

I would like to see as little changes to the base game as possible if ETC adopt KoW. And those changes should be as simple as possible, so that they are easily understood and don't require an extensive FAQ.

KoW is a much superior game than Warhammer FB in terms of balance and clarity of rules, so simple army composition rules should be enough to limit the most extreme builds if such things are found and determined to be not fun to play against.

This way ETC would enable more beginners to the hobby than it'd block, in the long run.

The times of us vs. them are over. Let's break up the cliques and actually form a healthy base for the hobby to grow from.
I do respect your opinions even when I do not state so, we are all free to disagree and agree here. And I certainly do not assume that my ideas about the rules would be the only proper ones. We all have our own ways for playing these games and that is fine.

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Re: KOW ETC ? ideas and proposals

Postby Chris Appleford » Wed Sep 23, 2015 3:41 pm

Nibbles wrote:KoW is a much superior game than Warhammer FB in terms of balance and clarity of rules

No.
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Re: KOW ETC ? ideas and proposals

Postby Viruk » Wed Sep 23, 2015 3:43 pm

Chris Appleford wrote:
Nibbles wrote:KoW is a much superior game than Warhammer FB in terms of balance and clarity of rules

No.

I agree personally.
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Re: KOW ETC ? ideas and proposals

Postby Shyanekh » Wed Sep 23, 2015 4:22 pm

Seems difficult to argue that Warhammer was actually clearer and better balanced than Kings of War ... each to their own I guess.

Snake1311 wrote:This isn't a "Doom & Gloom" kind of post, more of a realisation that if we are talking KoW at the ETC, we are looking at 9 games over the three days rather than the usual 6. I think it may be worth thinking about pros and cons of that change for a bit.


This is something that's definitely worth reflecting on. Truth be told, I'm not sure how much help I can give you here. I don't know a great deal about how the ETC is run. I'll try and start the ball rolling though:

Pro:
More games helps reduce the impact of fluke wins/losses on overall scores.

Con:
Even though the games are shorter, 9 games could still be pretty draining.
Last edited by Shyanekh on Wed Sep 23, 2015 5:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: KOW ETC ? ideas and proposals

Postby blackfang » Wed Sep 23, 2015 5:04 pm

Chris Appleford wrote:
Nibbles wrote:KoW is a much superior game than Warhammer FB in terms of balance and clarity of rules

No.


You can prefer what you prefer, but Nibbles's quote is objectively true. It's not even saying much - WHFB is the bottom of the barrel in that regard from all professionally published games. X-wing is better. Warmahordes is better. Infinity is better. Malifaux is better. Wrath of Kings is better. Deadzone is better. Dystopian Wars... well, that's probably reaching.

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Re: KOW ETC ? ideas and proposals

Postby Chris Appleford » Wed Sep 23, 2015 5:54 pm

blackfang wrote:Nibbles's quote is objectively true.

No.
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Re: KOW ETC ? ideas and proposals

Postby Warboss Sweeting » Wed Sep 23, 2015 6:07 pm

Chris Appleford wrote:
blackfang wrote:Nibbles's quote is objectively true.

No.

I heavily agree with that no, really heavily.
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Re: KOW ETC ? ideas and proposals

Postby Hardrad Hammerhand » Wed Sep 23, 2015 7:06 pm

I've played WFB continually since 1996 until its recent defenestration (and still playing a bit of 8th). But tried and am loving KoW.

Superior in balance? Remains to be seen whether it is actually as balanced as the existing KoW community believe now that a bunch of list optimising WFB players have migrated but i'm confident and optimistic it's at least less unbalanced than WFB.

Superior in rules clarity? I was a rules lawyer in WFB (in the sense of wanting to know exactly what the rules were and to play them right not in the sense of trying to bend them to my advantage) so I had an extensive knowledge of just how many grey areas there were. And sorry, yes. KoW rules are clearer. This is objectively true. No pages of FAQs required here.

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Re: KOW ETC ? ideas and proposals

Postby Nibbles » Wed Sep 23, 2015 8:56 pm

Warboss Sweeting wrote:
Chris Appleford wrote:
blackfang wrote:Nibbles's quote is objectively true.

No.

I heavily agree with that no, really heavily.


It was my subjective view on the matter, of course I am not speaking for everyone else.

But like Hardrad above, I have found the rules to be much clearer than they were in Warhammer. So far I have found the game to have better balance as well.

And someone could maybe tell Viruk to stop spamming my inbox, he replied to 11 of my KoW posts in PM's saying nothing but "no". I don't see why someone so enthusiastic about community projects and well-being of the hobby needs to harass people on forums.
I do respect your opinions even when I do not state so, we are all free to disagree and agree here. And I certainly do not assume that my ideas about the rules would be the only proper ones. We all have our own ways for playing these games and that is fine.

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Re: KOW ETC ? ideas and proposals

Postby blackfang » Wed Sep 23, 2015 9:23 pm

Warboss Sweeting wrote:
Chris Appleford wrote:
blackfang wrote:Nibbles's quote is objectively true.

No.

I heavily agree with that no, really heavily.

Objective reality doesn't depend on your personal opinion.

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Re: KOW ETC ? ideas and proposals

Postby Nibbles » Thu Sep 24, 2015 1:32 pm

I also agree that it might be objectively true that the rules are clearer than in Warhammer.

This is of course my subjective view, but it does not change the objective clarity of the rules which does exist independently of our input as Blackfang points out.

Math would be an objective tool for looking at the clarity of the rules. The games have different amount of rules, but the percentages are the same, both games surely have 100% of their rules instead of some of it being mysteriously missing.

An extensive study would undoubtedly reveal that Warhammer has a higher percentage of errors & ambiguous rules though.
I do respect your opinions even when I do not state so, we are all free to disagree and agree here. And I certainly do not assume that my ideas about the rules would be the only proper ones. We all have our own ways for playing these games and that is fine.

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Re: KOW ETC ? ideas and proposals

Postby MillerXL » Thu Sep 24, 2015 2:58 pm

Chris Appleford wrote:
blackfang wrote:Nibbles's quote is objectively true.

No.


Chris Appleford wrote:
Nibbles wrote:KoW is a much superior game than Warhammer FB in terms of balance and clarity of rules

No.


Not exactly the loquacious type, is he?

Have to say that KoW has better rules, and is a better system in my experience.

I'm glad WHFB is dead, if that's what it took for me to give it a try. I would kill it a hundred times again just to get me down off my initial misconceptions about the game.

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Re: KOW ETC ? ideas and proposals

Postby Edroulfo » Thu Sep 24, 2015 4:47 pm

From my point of view KoW have crystal-clear rules. Excellent movement concept. Excellent rulling for LoS. It's faster than WH. It lacks only in magic phase, BUT the synergy of the spells are magnificent and they just promote your tactics. They aren't game winners.
My only concern is some heavyshooting lists and some Flying Parties.

PS
I strongly believe that an item of rerolling snake eyes on nerve tests within 6 or 9 " will be the perfect addition to KoW.
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Re: KOW ETC ? ideas and proposals

Postby Nibbles » Sat Sep 26, 2015 7:13 pm

From my part, while I'm not happy that Warhammer Fantasy got killed by GW, I realise that this was the thing that got me to try out Kings of War. And I am glad that I bought the rulebook and tried the game, because it is a better game for me than Warhammer Fantasy 8th edition was.
I do respect your opinions even when I do not state so, we are all free to disagree and agree here. And I certainly do not assume that my ideas about the rules would be the only proper ones. We all have our own ways for playing these games and that is fine.

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Re: KOW ETC ? ideas and proposals

Postby phierlihy » Fri Oct 09, 2015 3:53 am

Forgive me for jumping back on track but...why does the ETC need a different brand of KoW in the first place? Is there something wrong with KoW that I haven't seen? I ask because I enjoy the game out of the box and haven't seen a specific vision of what the ETC wants to achieve by changing the game? What doesn't it do that they seem to need it to do?

I like the game Monopoly right out of the box. I don't see a need for ETC Monopoly when the original is just fine.

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Re: KOW ETC ? ideas and proposals

Postby Gojira » Fri Oct 09, 2015 8:37 am

In a nutshell, format and team rules etc. You literally couldn't play a team style game of KoW 'out of the box' right now.
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Re: KOW ETC ? ideas and proposals

Postby blackfang » Fri Oct 09, 2015 8:43 am

You literally couldn't do that with any game out of the box.

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Re: KOW ETC ? ideas and proposals

Postby Darklord » Fri Oct 09, 2015 8:55 am

What is needed to make it a team game?

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Re: KOW ETC ? ideas and proposals

Postby Viruk » Fri Oct 09, 2015 9:42 am

The only thing needed to make an ETC style game is a sliding scale scoring system. So not just a win/loss/draw system.

So it means a player could take a bad match up and try and lose by a small margin while the players that got good match ups try and win big as possible. Also means if something unexpected happens and a person who should have won starts losing big that other members of team can start pushing for a bigger win.

Apart from that nothing really needs to be done to make it a team game. Even then the sliding scale isn't 100% necessary just makes the games a little bit more fun imo and really forces the team to communicate during the games which is one of the really cool things about ETC.

As an aside point if any country is interested even remotely of sending someone to ETC to play KoW then please check out this thread: http://warhammer.org.uk/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=131159&p=1563598#p1563598

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Re: KOW ETC ? ideas and proposals

Postby phierlihy » Fri Oct 09, 2015 12:47 pm

So count up the points won/lost instead of doing straight win/loss and you're done. Or you could change the format - play four games per day instead of two round robin style. I'm not sure cramming what worked in Warhammer into KoW is going to make your games better. Maybe the key is to start over and come up with a different tournament setup?

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Re: KOW ETC ? ideas and proposals

Postby Darklord » Fri Oct 09, 2015 12:56 pm

Mantic already has a tournament scoring system for KoW which works fine, so that would probably be ideal.

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