Nagash Supreme Lord of the Undead

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Snoza

Nagash Supreme Lord of the Undead

Postby Snoza » Tue Dec 04, 2007 12:38 am

Here the Rules for Nagash that i have rchanged to work with the new rules :D

Nagash counts as two lord Choices for a Vampire Counts Army and Must be the Army General Even if Mannfred Von Carstein is Present.
Points:750

Nagash M WS BS S T W I A Ld
6 7 7 7(8) 7 7 6 6 10

Magic items
Mortis Blade of Death, The Black Armour of Nagash, The Book of Nagash and the Staff of Power

Special Rules:
Terror, Large Target, immune to Psychology

Black Armour of Nagash
Nagash Gets a 4+ Armour save and 4+ ward Save with no modifiers allowed.

Mortis Blade of Death
adds +1 strength making it 7-8, any unsaved wounds caused by this sword are given to nagash but can not exceed the amount of wounds that he started with.

Book of Nagash
Nagash is a level 5 wizard who nows all the spells in the Necromancy spell list. add 6 power and 6 despell dice

Staff of Power
Holds one randomly generated spell from the lore of Death or Necromancy list player chooses.
adds 4 power dice.

These rules have not been play tested. And i dont think they will be allowed in tournaments. Please leave feedback on how they work or how they can be changed.

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Frank Battaglia
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Postby Frank Battaglia » Tue Dec 04, 2007 1:01 am

(1) This belongs in the Workshop
(2) Those rules are ridiculously broken
"Remember, you're playing to enjoy a challenging battle with friends, where the spirit of the game is more important than winning at any cost."

Snoza

Postby Snoza » Tue Dec 04, 2007 4:10 am

Frank Battaglia wrote:(1) This belongs in the Workshop
(2) Those rules are ridiculously broken


yeah i know that the Rules are ridiculously broken and but all his stats are from the original Undead Army Book, so are his items but i have weaked them into todays version of Warhammer.

For Example the Staff of Power used the spell cards, and the book of nagash used them as well. So i think he is alright but still unbalanced.

i didnt put it in the Workshop because i didnt know what it was at the time.

xcatXfishx

Postby xcatXfishx » Tue Dec 04, 2007 8:25 am

Why isn't he Undead?
Level five wizard? Six Dispel Dice? That sounds a bit excessive because Level 4 wizards only produce two dice.
Four power dice from the staff?
How is it that The Supreme Lord of the Undead counts only as two lords?

Giving him all the spells is appropriate. Dropping him down to level 4 and making his magic work like a second generation slann would probably be a little more balanced. And I don't expect him to be under 1200 pts either. It's friggin' Nagash.

Snoza

Postby Snoza » Tue Dec 04, 2007 9:05 am

The Reason Nagash 1200pts is because in the old rules he was only 475pts but then u had to add all the magic items points, which in total ended up as 750pts. H
e is a level 5 wizard is because in the old rules he didnt have a rank which is weird but the book of Nagash bakc then added another level onto the Necromancer that had it so thats why he is level 5, and for the 6 power dice and dispell dice,

It's friggin' Nagash
as you said.

The Undead Army list is Dead, and the Tomb Kings wont want Him because of what he did to them, so thats why he is in the VC army. But i dont surpose that he could be used in the TK army its the same basically.
Last edited by Snoza on Tue Dec 04, 2007 10:10 am, edited 1 time in total.

deadkez

Postby deadkez » Tue Dec 04, 2007 9:53 am

I had a go at this on 'hammer & anvil' some time ago, along with an army to go with him/against him:

http://www.talismancy.com/hammer/index.php

Some issues I encountered:
Nagash changes so much throughout his existence, you need to decide which 'version' of Nagash your version represents and stick to it.

The 4th Edition Undead book was written for a very different version of the game. You need to see how the role of characters and special characters has changed in Warhammer over the years and make appropriate changes, directly lifting his stats isn't a good idea.

Nagash ideally needs an army list just for him as neither the VC or the TK books do him justice, you could perhaps use the Army of the Cairns list from WD, but this has its own problems.

Most folks would say that Nagash shouldn't have rules as he would be too god-like, it would be like having Sigmar as a special character. I disagree with this, but expect backlash.

Snoza

Postby Snoza » Tue Dec 04, 2007 10:09 am

Dude i competly agree with you i posted this so that with people helping he can become a fair Character, but i Reckon that Archaon lord of the end times is a god like Character who in my opinion Can easily tear Nagash a new one(I play Chaos with Archaon so thats how i know).
as well as Valten Exalted of Sigmar Can be Considered a god like Character, most characters around today are easily better then the ones in the past.

But if there is Anything that needs Changing in Nagash's rules feel free to reply to this post.

Dolmot

Postby Dolmot » Tue Dec 04, 2007 11:21 am

Snoza wrote:yeah i know that the Rules are ridiculously broken and but all his stats are from the original Undead Army Book

Those were the days when there were plenty of 6s and 7s in the core stats and S10 swords were handed out like candy. Nowadays S, T, W and A are notably toned down. Can you post a "modifier statline" listing the differences between Nagash and a common vampire lord from that edition? I think it would give a better idea of what he can do compared to standard characters.

Right now he's a heavier close combat monster than the largest new HE dragon or a chaos hellcannon. That's not exactly right. He could be close to them but not over.

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Marlowe
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Postby Marlowe » Tue Dec 04, 2007 12:17 pm

I think his stats are accecptable, at a muchly increased points cost. But the magic is just ridiculous. 12 casting dice on his own! wise up. I think if he was 1200-1500 points and was a lvl 4 that knew all the spells and maybe generated an extra dice per spell cast ( like a slan) he would be balancedish.. possibly

Leth Shyish'phak

Postby Leth Shyish'phak » Tue Dec 04, 2007 12:20 pm

I wrote some rules for Nagash a while ago, but his stat line was not nearly as good as this. He did generate 14 power dice and 6 dispel dice. He could raise about a hundred skeletons a turn, and you could take more necromancers than normal, but he was 2000 points, two lords and three heroes.

Snoza

Postby Snoza » Wed Dec 05, 2007 10:14 am

well i play tested him against one of the best characters Around Archaon Lord of the End Times,and Archaon was Snapped, in one turn nagash Summoned 10 Skele's and kept boosting them until he miscasted and lost all his power dice and Dispell dice for that turn, then Archaon released his daemon Sword and then wiped the Skele's off the Face of the Planet but then there was more 20 or so, but Archaon Killed them all and Nagash was next but archaon on 4 wounds and his mount dead, Nagash on 7, this was not a fair fight Archaon had to wound on 6's and Nagash had to wound on 2's but hit on 4's, Now Nagash is seriously Unbalanced.

Any1 who reads this can they give some helpful suggestions on how he can be balanced.

Vampire Lord, New edition, ( I would Post the Older Edition Rules except i was at a friends place when i first posted the Rules for Nagash).
M WS BS S T W I A Ld
6 8 6 5 5 4 8 5 10

Beleraphon

Postby Beleraphon » Wed Dec 05, 2007 10:36 am

http://warhammer.org.uk/PhP/viewtopic.p ... ght=nagash

I put up some rules myself for the big fella a while ago, and I reckon I could get him down to 850 points, lord and two hero slots!! :)

Leth Shyish'phak

Postby Leth Shyish'phak » Wed Dec 05, 2007 6:10 pm

If he cost that little, he would be available in a 2000 point game. With my rules he can only be used in 3000+, and even then, you wouldn't have many troops. helps to show that he would only ever appear in absolutely HUGE battles.

HUGE
HUGE
HUGE
HUGE
HUGE
HUGE BATTLES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Snoza

Postby Snoza » Wed Dec 05, 2007 9:18 pm

Nagash on his own can win a 3000 point battle if he wanted to, because of the summoning of the undead, and all his Magic.

GraaEminense

Re: Nagash Supreme Lord of the Undead

Postby GraaEminense » Thu Dec 06, 2007 5:12 pm

Snoza wrote:Nagash M WS BS S T W I A Ld
6 7 7 7(8) 7 7 6 6 10

Looking at how other characters and monsters have changed, I think his statline (as a monster undead character thing) should be more on the line of...

M: 5 or 6, depending on how spry you think he is. Treeman is M5, most Ogre-like things have M6.
WS: 6-8. He's probably about as good as a human lord, but Vampire Lord equivalence could be justified.
BS: who cares?
S: 5. That's what most powerful-but-not-quite-Dragon monsters get, isn't it? Gets to 6 with Mortis, which is fair.
T: 5 or 6. Archaon or Treeman. Not 7, nothing gets 7 anymore.
W: 5 or 6. As any decent monster.
I: 3 or 4. He's a monstrous dead thing, shouldn't be too quick.
A: 5. Decent monster stat, but not a Dragon.
LD: 10. Of course.

Physcally a bit harder than a Vampire Lord, less than a Dragon. Add items and magic to power him up.

Giving him the Undead rules seems obvious.

Snoza

Postby Snoza » Thu Dec 06, 2007 9:42 pm

I know that nagash's statline is way to strong but thats when he was in his Prime at the height of his Power, so the toning down of his stats his good but didnt know what to change them too, but the 12 dice that he generates is still way to strong, What would be good to reduce this too?
because Now Nagash is only a Quarter of his Full Strength. But still very powerful.

GraaEminense

Postby GraaEminense » Fri Dec 07, 2007 1:48 pm

Thing is, the rules are different now than when Nagash (in his prime) was written in 1993 (?).

Compare his stats then with the Greater Daemons or Great/Imperial Dragons of the same period: They are essentially on the same level.

That means his stats (for Nagash at his strongest, as an Undead monster necromancer thing) for 7th ed should be roughly Greater Daemon/Dragon level. And they've taken a serious hit, being mostly 5s and 6s rather than 7s and 8s. The stats I propose above are based on this.

As for magic, he wasn't actually all that good in 4th/5th edition compared to normally available Necromancer Lords. Making him a level 4 Necromancer that knows all the spells and giving him a staff that generates 2 power dice/1 dispel dice each phase should be sufficient.

If you want to be really, really nasty, give him an additional special skill. Something like "can cast Invocation of Nehek any number of times each magic phase". Or simply steal skills from Teclis/Slann, like 'no miscasts' or 'irresistible on any double'.

Snoza

Postby Snoza » Sat Dec 08, 2007 10:05 pm

those are some good ideas

xcatXfishx

Postby xcatXfishx » Mon Dec 10, 2007 9:22 pm

Snoza wrote:Nagash on his own can win a 3000 point battle if he wanted to, because of the summoning of the undead, and all his Magic.


Are you five years old? I picture you as a little kid reading his books and rolling dice on his kitchen table. Correct me if I'm wrong but you strike me as someone who doesn't play the game very often.

I have been playing undead for a while now, and flipping through the old book got me thinking. We had horsemen that could run through walls, and T5 infantry with four wounds each. With this in mind, one should consider the context in which the book was written, taking into account other armies of the time and the rules set that was used.

Balancing Nagash to function with any sort of playability in 7th edition is folly, because noone will ever be satisfied. 4th edition I believe, was dubbed "Herohammer" for good reason. Characters, except in rare instances can't singlehandedly break the back of the enemy army anymore and magic has been dumbed down considerably. My suggestion would be to start from the ground up, rather than just copying and pasting from the old book.

Snoza

Postby Snoza » Mon Sep 22, 2008 9:48 am

ok well sorry for the very late reply to this topic i started nearly 10 months ago i thought that i would try this again, well mainly because a few of my Mates have decided that we might have a God Like Character Bash.

Well here is what i have for Nagash for now:

Nagash counts as two Lord,1 Hero and 1 Rare Choices for a Undead (either Tomb Kings or Vampire counts) Army and Must be the Army General no matter what.
Points: 1500pts

Nagash M WS BS S T W I A Ld
6 8 4 5 5 5 3 4 10

Magic items
Mortis Blade of Death, The Black Armour of Nagash, The Book of Nagash and the Staff of Power

Special Rules:
Terror, Large Target, immune to Psychology, Undead

Black Armour of Nagash
Nagash Gets a 4+ Armour save and 4+ ward Save with no modifiers allowed.

Mortis Blade of Death
adds +1 strength making it 5-6, any unsaved wounds caused by this sword are given to nagash but can not exceed the amount of wounds that he started with.

Book of Nagash
Nagash is a level 4 wizard who nows all the spells in the Necromancy spell list. add 6 power and 6 despell dice

Staff of Power
Holds one randomly generated spell from the lore of Death
adds 2 power dice and 1 dispel dice to the dice pool each magic phase.


and xcatXfishx if you read this again, i am not a 5 year old kid who reads to much, i just love the fluff behind the whole Warhammer World, and if you dont like it thats your opinion.

Please let me know what you think of these updated rules.

Snoza

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Grim Squeaker
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Postby Grim Squeaker » Mon Sep 22, 2008 12:36 pm

How about this...


[size=18]Nagash[/size] - 850 pts
Lord Choice
M WS BS S T W I A Ld
6 6 0 6 6 5 6 5 10

Equipment: Mortis & Black Armour of Nagash
Options: None
Mount: None

Special Rules:
Terror, Large Target, Undead

Supreme Necromancer
Nagash is a level 4 wizard and knows all spells from the Vampire List. In addition, Nagash knows 4 spells from one of the following spell Lores; Death or Dark.
Nagash has +1 to cast any spell form the Vampire lore list.

The Chosen Champion of Nagash
If your army is lead by Nagash, one grave guard, or black knight champion may be upgraded to Krell, Dark lord of Nagash for additional +150 pts. Krell is Wight Lord with +1 WS and Killing Blow on 5+ in challenges. In addtion to the units normal equipment, Krell carries the Black Axe of Krell.

Magic Items

Black Armour of Nagash
1+ Armour save and 4+ ward Save.

Mortis Blade of Death
+1 strength. Each unsaved wound caused in close combat bearer gains +1 wound (cannot exceed his normal starting value)

Book of Nagash
The owner of this book can cast Summon Undead Horde as a bound spell. Power Level 4.

Staff of Power
The ultimate staff of the undead provides Nagash with +1 power/dispel dice each magic phase. In addition, this staff ignores any first miscast once per magic phase.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

I dunno about this though. Still like to think Nagash is too powerful for WFB as no special character even comes close to his level in power. I hope GW keeps Naggi as an enigma for many years still..

Snoza

Postby Snoza » Tue Sep 23, 2008 7:13 am

wow that looks heaps better then mine, but the only thing i would change is His Points, to either 1000 or 1200 due him beening able to have 4 more Spells then a normal Super Mage (eg Teclis). but other then that he looks good.

Snoza

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Postby Grim Squeaker » Tue Sep 23, 2008 8:14 am

Thanks :)

Conserning his cost, 1000 - 1200 seems alot, imo. Honestly, I would start testing him at 750 pts and worked my way up. 750-800 pts is about 200% of a level 4 Vampire Lord, I personally, wouldnt go much higher than that.

Snoza

Postby Snoza » Tue Sep 23, 2008 9:42 am

yeah i guess i will start him at 850 as you suggested, and see how well he works, then i will see what needs improving.

Snoza

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Postby ArmyRoster.com » Wed Nov 26, 2008 9:30 pm

I like that version... although I don't think those 4 extra spells are any good lol... does anyone else ever want any spells from another lore? I love my Vampire Spells lol... they are all I ever need. I think he may perhaps could generate a couple more power dice like the VC power "Master of the Black Arts".. considering Mannfred generates 6 power dice in this manner... you are saying Mannfred is more necromatically gifted? lol I dont think sooooo. If anything he should be givin to more power dice in addition to his staff... just my two cents!

By the by, who else thinks us VC deserve a Nagash campaign of some kind!? That would be awesome....

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Postby Grim Squeaker » Wed Nov 26, 2008 11:29 pm

ArmyRoster.com wrote:I like that version... although I don't think those 4 extra spells are any good lol... does anyone else ever want any spells from another lore? I love my Vampire Spells lol... they are all I ever need. I think he may perhaps could generate a couple more power dice like the VC power "Master of the Black Arts".. considering Mannfred generates 6 power dice in this manner... you are saying Mannfred is more necromatically gifted? lol I dont think sooooo. If anything he should be givin to more power dice in addition to his staff... just my two cents!

By the by, who else thinks us VC deserve a Nagash campaign of some kind!? That would be awesome....


Hehe Thanks I guess :P

The four spells are more fluff than an helpful tool on the battlefield. Its just there to represent Nagash's magic knowledge beyond the lore of necromancy - Like the time he captured some dark elven sorcerers, just so he could make them teach him their secrets of dark magic. But having some destructive magic firepower, like dark & death magic, can be very useful vs certain armies.

On the question about powerdices, I agree and disagree. I agree that Nagash should be more powerful necomancer than Mannfred. But imo, the problem lays in the vampire powers; a nautral wind of magic absorbing ability (+2 powerdice) is really unfluffy, considering the greatest mage of them all (teclis) doesnt have that natural ability, and have to use a magic item to gain more - why would a vampire lord (or even worse, a vampire count) have this special power?

No, giving characters heeps of powerdices is a cheap and unfluffy way of making them better.

Master of the Dark Arts - 50 pts
Lord only.
Gives the Vampire lord a +1 bonus to cast any of his six spells from the lore of the vampires.

Thats how the power should be like, imo. The end of 8 powerdice vampire spell battery pr phase. I say good riddance :D

ArmyRoster.com

Postby ArmyRoster.com » Thu Nov 27, 2008 1:54 am

lol I would agree with you IF Mannfred wasn't so beefed up. I look at it as a comparison. The standard of comparison may be wrong (ie a Vampire Power giving him +2 power dice) But it IS there and it IS in the rules... so with that, I believe some kind of compensation for power is necessary...

You could do something like... +2 on the cast roll or something similar to give him some sort of extra bonus while casting that does not involve giving him more dice...

Mannfred has ALL of the Vampire spells and ALL of the Death spells lol....

EDIT: I was also thinking of making a Nagash model.. totally converted... would say that he is, by standard, 15 feet tall?

EDIT EDIT: Once you flush out these rules and it looks decent, and perhaps we have play tested him a bit, I would like to add this version into Army Roster as the "Official AR Version of Nagash" lol

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Postby Grim Squeaker » Thu Nov 27, 2008 2:47 am

Hehe imo, Mannfred and all Vampire in the new book is too beefed up when it comes to spellcasting, but I see your point. :)

The Nagash I wrote here MUST be tweaked and probably changed ALOT, considering I wrote that on the wing in 10-15 minutes.

ArmyRoster.com

Postby ArmyRoster.com » Thu Nov 27, 2008 2:51 am

doesn't mean its wrong :P. Im sure Nagash can be balanced somehow... even several different Nagashs (for different levels and time periods of his power) There could be one almighty Nagash that costs 3000 points and would identical to how he should be in game lol...



I think it would be fun to play a game where your whole are is just Nagash lol.

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Postby Grim Squeaker » Thu Nov 27, 2008 1:19 pm

hehe

I might take another look on the Nagash character alittle later, but right now I have some RPG stuff to finish up.


Good luck with your ArmyRoster program! Im looking forward seeing it in action, as I think the army builder program is kinda "messy" ;)


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