Bretonnia

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Bretonnia

Postby MightyM00se » Tue Jul 14, 2015 4:42 am

Rather than Chunk up the 9th age with bretonnian stuff. going to move this to here for now.

This is the current FAQ style update. Cut/paste and loose leaf sheets will be made up and look decently pretty when i get to that stage.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/fz7426w0ykfvj ... 9.pdf?dl=0

Our mandates and addressing some design concepts.

1) They must not become OP.

2) they must remain true to post anthony reynolds fluff. So a lot of our inspiration moving forward is coming from Black library/FFG Knights of the grail. The 6th ed army book and the companion book series by Anthony Reynolds (Spiritual liege of bretonnia)

3) "Bloody peasants!" "OOOH you seeing this, the violence inherent in the system" - There must be the strict dichotomy of Knight/Peasant.

4) Any unit additions must be playtested... alot. As it is we are not moving on from phase 1 of our plan until we have had the current new stuff put up against one of every army (my group are a combination of hard core tourney and fluff players... and every army is represented in great number). They must adhere to rules number 1-3 before they are considered. And have a guide on how to convert or the ability for them to be made easily.

Work In progress

Changes:- (New in Red, Undergoing testing in green, proposed in blue, implemented in black)

Lance formation:- Enemy unit counts as disrupted on charge.


Questing knight
Attention of the lady:- Re-rolls to hit monster/monstrous.

Questing Sword:- Sword can be used as hand weapon/great sword. Chosen at start of combat as usual

Grail knight
Virtuous Combat:- The knight gains piercing. Furthermore army's of destruction suffer -1 to hit the grail knight.

“The Lady’s Benediction”.
When the knights of Bretonnia take the knee before battle, thosewhom are forsworn to their Goddess are of no exception. But they seek more than the watchful gaze but benediction to aid them against the trespass of their enemy.If the Bretonnian army prays before battle, roll on the following for any character or unit that possesses the Grail Vow.

1.Blessed GuidanceThey court death like an errant, seek foes like the questing and strike fast and true as they very power of their goddess is behind them.The model or unit with Blessed guidance gains the Always strike first special rule.

2-3.Righteous FuroreInvaders that do harm unto the green lands under the watchful gaze of the lady are soon to invoke her ire. The Grail Knight are this anger made manifest.The model or unit with Righteous Furore gain Devastating Charge.

4-5.Unshakable FaithStolid is the Grail Knight that hassupped from the cup held by his goddess. His body torn asunder by his quest, rebuilt to be unyielding in his resolve. The model or unit with Unshakable faith gains the stubborn special rule.

6.Immortal GuardiansThe Grail knight is the undying champion of bretonnia. His every action shadowed by an ethereal gossamer, he is truly a blessed warrior, truly a saint made flesh.The model or unit have their ward save increased to 4+. Subject to the standard caveats (eg. Lost if unit flees).



Peasant Bowman, Defensive Stakes.
"Additionally, mounts may not attack as it is assumed that they cannot get past the stakes.”"


Royal Pegasus, Special rules.
Pegasus Mastery.
Lord/Hero may join a unit of Pegasus knights.


Men at arms.
Change “Points/Model: 5” to “Points/Model: 4”
Remove “Pole arm”.
Options.
Add “Any unit may replace their hand weapon with a polearm (+1pt/model)”


Page 69 – Peasant Bowmen, Options.
Add “Any unit my take hunting dogs 15pts.”
Add “Special rules:- Hunting Dogs.”


Page 71 – Special Units.
Add Unit Profile “0-2 Peasant Arbalest”.

M WS BS S T W I A LD
Peasant Arbalest 4 2 3 3 3 1 3 1 5
Villein 4 2 4 3 3 1 3 1 5

Points 7pt/Model
Equipment: Arbalest Crossbow, pavise
Unit Size: 5-20
Options:
Any unit may be equipped with light armour (+1pt/model).
Any unit may be equipped with a villain for +5 Pts.
Any Unit may be equipped with a standard for +10pts.

Special Rules
Peasants Duty.



Page 71 – Special Units, Pegasus Knights.
Change Unit Profile for knight and Gallant to “W = 3”.


Page 72 – Rare, Grail Knights.
Add “Special Rules:- Virtuous Combat”



Nuked this topic back to almost empty so i can lay it out a bit better.
Updates will be in the PDF.
Last edited by MightyM00se on Thu Jul 23, 2015 8:46 am, edited 27 times in total.

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Re: [WHFB OZ] Bretonnian 9th Edition update.

Postby MightyM00se » Tue Jul 14, 2015 4:43 am

Reserved for addressing concerns (if any).

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Re: Bretonnia 8th Edition Update

Postby AlexCat » Wed Jul 15, 2015 10:19 am

So.... +4 PD battery, free rerolls to hit/to wound just for the questing vow, uber grail knights table... A typical 'fun' rules. Oh, and removing steadfast from enemies just in case.

You wanted Brets not to be OP? Good job!
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Re: Bretonnia 8th Edition Update

Postby MightyM00se » Wed Jul 15, 2015 10:58 am

Anything in blue is proposed, un playtested (read: think tanked between ten of us) and awaiting the next weekend we have free.

Furthermore, the old addage is - It is complete, not when we cannot add more to it, but when cannot remove any else.

With grail knights we are using Chaos knights (arguably one of the best cavalry in the game) and building a matching analogue in the grail knights and scaling back where we need to.

Lance is being pulled back to only steadfast, it doesn't stop things like without number.

Edit:-

The sacrament is an item that we used to have, then they changed the way power pool worked between 6th and 7th, this is merely bringing that rule back into the fold. So d6 every other turn, or double power dice every other turn for 40pts

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Re: Bretonnia 8th Edition Update

Postby AlexCat » Wed Jul 15, 2015 11:52 am

I quoted your rules that are clearly OP.
Its not like other armies dont have OP elements in them, its just when you're proposing fan-created set of rules consisting mainly of OP stuff - be ready that people will look at your work as just another powerplayer's wet dreams.
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Re: Bretonnia 8th Edition Update

Postby derm » Wed Jul 15, 2015 12:09 pm

I think removing steadfast on the charge is way OTT - a throwback to the Glory days when Brettonia Lance charges were dominating tournaments in earlier editions. Sorry I think Grail knights are potentially OTT also by that chart, what other armies entries of rare or special come with a 1+, 4++

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Re: Bretonnia 8th Edition Update

Postby MightyM00se » Wed Jul 15, 2015 12:13 pm

AlexCat wrote:I quoted your rules that are clearly OP.
Its not like other armies dont have OP elements in them, its just when you're proposing fan-created set of rules consisting mainly of OP stuff - be ready that people will look at your work as just another powerplayer's wet dreams.


That's a fair cop. Some of this has mainly been spit balling and hasnt seen a table just yet. Lance 3.0 has but the cycle will continue on - We are already re-discussing this rule literally... right now as to whether or not make steadfast negation a conditional.

Now, we were going with re rolls to hit and wound on questing vow - i do agree that it may be OP, but after first round of getting things on the table (for some reason that feels right... just randomly rolling dice doesnt quite feel right! :P) we will move from there.

There are two options we are exploring already, which is raising the questing knights points to sit mid way in points between grail knights and knights of the realm.

I am not sure i would consider the grail knights over powered though - care to expound?

Edit: 1+/5+?

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Re: Bretonnia 8th Edition Update

Postby Logan054 » Wed Jul 15, 2015 1:20 pm

Erm, yeah...

How about we take some ideas from the end times books first.

Pride of Brionne

Models may form lances up to 4 models wide

Thundering charge

If the unit made a successful charge that this turn gains the stomp rule

Page 49 – Questing Knights, Special rule.
Add “Attention of the Lady: During their quest to drink from the grail, a Questing Knight undertakes Heroic deeds. Any model with the Questing Vow may Re-rolls to hit and wound against any model that causes fear and terror.

Add “Questing Sword: The questing sword can be used as either a Hand weapon or a Great sword, chosen at the start of close combat as usual.”


Maybe call it something like a "Broadsword" and give it the old cavalry hammer rules. Requires two hands, +1 strength, +2 strength on the charge.

Page 63 – Arcane Items. Sacrament of the Lady.
At the start of any Bretonnian magic phase, the bearer my use the Sacrament. The model Channels an extra d6 power dice in its next turn (generated power dice may not exceed twice the wizards level), but may not cast that spells. On a 1, the model has run out of wafers and after that turn the sacrament cannot be used for the rest of the game.


How about instead of channeling the model may use this item. the model gains D3 powerdice. On a roll of a 6 you may not use the item for the rest of the game.


Foot knights? why am I not seeing foot knights?

1 - Blessed Guidance
Their blades, their being, their steeds are always at the ready, for their watch is timeless until, battle wearied and broken the lady grants them their peace. It is until that time time that age does not weary them. They court death like an errant, they seek foes like the questing, and they strike fast and true as the very power of their goddess is behind them. The Grail knights gain always strike first special rule.

2-3 Furor of the lady
Those that invade and do harm unto the green lands under the watchful gaze of the lady are soon to invoke her ire. If the knights of bretonnia fight bring justice to her foe, the Grail knights are this will made manifest. The Grail knights gain devastating charge.

4-5 Unshakable faith.
Stolid are the Grail knights that have supped from the cup held by their goddess. Their bodies torn asunder by their quest and built anew in her grace has made these knights unyielding in the face of their foe. Nor will the felling of a brethren speed them into cold, bitter dishonour. The Grail knights are imbued with +1 Toughness and Stubborn.

6 Immortal Guardians
The grail knights are the undying champions of the lady. They Armour, dented and ruined by countless years of battle still shines with an almost unreal brightness. Their every action shadowed by an ethereal gossamer. These blessed warriors are truly saints made flesh. Their armour save is increased to 1+ and their ward save is increased to a 5+."


So basically you want chaos knights ++? How about regenerate instead of the blessing?

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Re: Bretonnia 8th Edition Update

Postby derm » Wed Jul 15, 2015 7:59 pm

You've posted quite a few of what you feel are improvements but I'm curious as to whether you feel anything of the old book needs toned down - after all revising army books is also about correction of things that with later editions seem too much;
Off the top of my head ; Str 5 Trebs when all other stonethrowers were reduced to base str 3.

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Re: Bretonnia 8th Edition Update

Postby MightyM00se » Wed Jul 15, 2015 9:42 pm

Logan054 wrote:
Models may form lances up to 4 models wide

Thundering charge

If the unit made a successful charge that this turn gains the stomp rule



I will admit, my end times books are still in plastic wrap. But food for though indeed. My knee jerk is to say 4 str 3 attacks is up there with why we ditched the impact hits idea.

Logan054 wrote:Maybe call it something like a "Broadsword" and give it the old cavalry hammer rules. Requires two hands, +1 strength, +2 strength on the charge.


This really should be a Hand-and-a-half sword. Making it being able to change between hand weapon and great sword sort of makes more sense. At least for now.

Logan054 wrote:
Page 63 – Arcane Items. Sacrament of the Lady.
At the start of any Bretonnian magic phase, the bearer my use the Sacrament. The model Channels an extra d6 power dice in its next turn (generated power dice may not exceed twice the wizards level), but may not cast that spells. On a 1, the model has run out of wafers and after that turn the sacrament cannot be used for the rest of the game.


How about instead of channeling the model may use this item. the model gains D3 powerdice. On a roll of a 6 you may not use the item for the rest of the game.


So make it per turn as opposed to every other turn, I still think that it would be on a roll of a 1 that it would fail as that would still be inline with the original entry.


Logan054 wrote:Foot knights? why am I not seeing foot knights?


We dont need them. Plus, in mine (and its an opinion that is shared) it doesnt fit with the theme post 2003 anthony reynolds book. The removed the whole concept of squiring and moved to errant - realm - questing - grail progression of knights. As far as i am aware there are only a handful of knights mentioned on foot in any of the books (some from montfort).

It would also start to, i feel, impact on the individual flavour to have elite/heavy infantry on foot as that starts to tread on the empires toes.


Logan054 wrote:
1 - Blessed Guidance
Their blades, their being, their steeds are always at the ready, for their watch is timeless until, battle wearied and broken the lady grants them their peace. It is until that time time that age does not weary them. They court death like an errant, they seek foes like the questing, and they strike fast and true as the very power of their goddess is behind them. The Grail knights gain always strike first special rule.
....


Discussing these again at the moment.Will post anupdate once we get an end point.

derm wrote:You've posted quite a few of what you feel are improvements but I'm curious as to whether you feel anything of the old book needs toned down - after all revising army books is also about correction of things that with later editions seem too much;


We are looking at either a)
Dropping them to str 4(9) to bring them into line with existing stone throwers. (Rock lobba is 4(5) and 85 points.

Or increasing their points cost to 110-130
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Re: Bretonnia 8th Edition Update

Postby Logan054 » Wed Jul 15, 2015 10:54 pm

MightyM00se wrote:I will admit, my end times books are still in plastic wrap. But food for though indeed. My knee jerk is to say 4 str 3 attacks is up there with why we ditched the impact hits idea.


I don't think 4 strength 3 hits is going to be game breaking, it just gives them a little hitting power

Logan054 wrote:This really should be a bar steward sword. Making it being able to change between hand weapon and great sword sort of makes more sense. At least for now.


Well I was more thinking of something that worked inline with what the models actually have and actually makes them a upgrade from the core knights. I think when it comes to units you should be able to see a natural progression.

So make it per turn as opposed to every other turn, I still think that it would be on a roll of a 1 that it would fail as that would still be inline with the original entry.


The problem with every other turn is on those turns you may get a massive advantage, especially if you roll low on the winds of magic, it also keeps inline with other items already in warhammer what TK have.


We dont need them. Plus, in mine (and its an opinion that is shared) it doesnt fit with the theme post 2003 anthony reynolds book. The removed the whole concept of squiring and moved to errant - realm - questing - grail progression of knights. As far as i am aware there are only a handful of knights mentioned on foot in any of the books (some from montfort).

It would also start to, i feel, impact on the individual flavour to have elite/heavy infantry on foot as that starts to tread on the empires toes.


If I'm honest, something like questing knights on foot really appeals to me from a visual standpoint, while most knights would be mounted, I see no reason why some wouldn't choose to fight on foot to sort of inspire the peasants.


Discussing these again at the moment.Will post anupdate once we get an end point.


Ok cool, I would certainly suggest moving away from random charts, it makes them harder to price correctly, you could even go the route of having a upgrade in the form of banner only they can take (like blood knights).

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Re: Bretonnia 8th Edition Update

Postby MightyM00se » Wed Jul 15, 2015 11:22 pm

Logan054 wrote:.
I don't think 4 strength 3 hits is going to be game breaking, it just gives them a little hitting power


(spitball) Lance impact:- on the turn that the knights in the lance formation charge, the charged unit takes impact hits for every knight that is able to fight... the wording is a bit meh but im just throwing it out there.

Logan054 wrote:.
Well I was more thinking of something that worked inline with what the models actually have and actually makes them a upgrade from the core knights. I think when it comes to units you should be able to see a natural progression.


We are also looking at this unit to fit a tactical short falling.
Yeoman - Redirection/Warmachine/rogue wizard
K.E - Charge support/Flank mitigation
KOTR - Main Charge
Peg - Flanker/line breaker/Warmachine
Grail knight - Heavy charge unit

Questing knights would fill the slot of monsterous creature mitigation.


The problem with every other turn is on those turns you may get a massive advantage, especially if you roll low on the winds of magic, it also keeps inline with other items already in warhammer what TK have.


The other option is, its instant d6 dice. Cant attempt to channel a further d6 dice. Which means you still have to roll 6's on d6 dice...May be too convoluted.

If I'm honest, something like questing knights on foot really appeals to me from a visual standpoint, while most knights would be mounted, I see no reason why some wouldn't choose to fight on foot to sort of inspire the peasants.


Knights, inspiring filth? what madness is this :P

moving away from random charts


Warhammer 8th is all about random! :D

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Re: Bretonnia 8th Edition Update

Postby MightyM00se » Thu Jul 16, 2015 2:00 am

Lance: counts as disrupted on the charge. Does not ignore steadfast.

Ammedned Favour to only be re-rolls with hits.

Sacrament Still under work.

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Re: Bretonnia 8th Edition Update

Postby MightyM00se » Thu Jul 16, 2015 1:32 pm

How we are working on grail knights.

we are using chaos knights as a base. With the Toughness 3/4 (knight) and 3/4 strength (steed) difference of 2 points. Edit: Oh.. and Fear...

We dont want to use hard stats changes and rather special rules. We also want it to be random so you dont have one favoured over another. Also - any of these are lost following the standard of the blessing. if they run/refuse challenge etc.

1 - Blessed Guidance
always strike first.

2-3 Furor of the lady
devastating charge.

4-5 Unshakable faith.
Stubborn

6 Immortal Guardians
4+ ward OR 1+ to blessing ward.

Is this better?

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Re: Bretonnia 8th Edition Update

Postby Logan054 » Thu Jul 16, 2015 9:40 pm

If you want chaos knights in your army then collect chaos. How about using grail knights as a basis as that is the unit you are trying to improve ;)

If you want to use rules then using a random chart just isn't the way, you simply can't point it correctly. Basically you have upgrades that work out something like this (based on magic items

1 - Blessed Guidance
always strike first. (25pts)

2-3 Furor of the lady
devastating charge. (5pts)

4-5 Unshakable faith.
Stubborn (35pts)

6 Immortal Guardians
4+ ward OR 1+ to blessing ward. (45/10pts)

I guess using the MoT as a basis that means that ASF is worth 5pts per model, devastating charge is worth 1pts, stubborn is worth 7, increased ward is worth 9/2. On a unit of 10 models the upgrade varies between being worth 10 and 70pts. So in some games they are going to overpriced and other under priced. It really fails to fix anything. This is worked on a basis that units pay a 5th of the price for a special rule that a character would.

If I was to redo the daemon book then I would certainly change all the gifts so they are bought and paid for.

I think your best bet is decide exactly what you think is wrong with grail knights and if fix's to the basic army rules are going to address this, if they don't, how far do they go towards fixing it. Then you might want to decide exactly what the issue is and what could be used to fix this. Is it lack of killing power or how easily they die? perhaps upgrading the wounds so they represented unit of heroes (kinda like skullreapers do)

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Re: Bretonnia 8th Edition Update

Postby MightyM00se » Fri Jul 17, 2015 1:25 am

I think your best bet is decide exactly what you think is wrong with grail knights and if fix's to the basic army rules are going to address this, if they don't, how far do they go towards fixing it. Then you might want to decide exactly what the issue is and what could be used to fix this. Is it lack of killing power or how easily they die? perhaps upgrading the wounds so they represented unit of heroes (kinda like skullreapers do)


To fix my issues with the book, controversial as they are, would require a ground up re-build and the ability to produce new minis. The former, i wouldnt mind doing but it would never be accepted by the wider community, the latter i am in the process of starting to do for limited run resin casts.

Here we go.

Yes, they are still competitive, and i get that. But what is now lacking and has been showing in the army is that they are missing out on some of the stuff newer armies have received. Largely small things like these kinds of tables that make each time you play ever so slightly different. New models to change play style and fixes here and there.

To that end, as I've outlined before from a competitive point of view. There is a niche just just about every unit we have. The only change we really need being that men at arms should be able to take sword/board and then pay for polearms. 4 points each with being able to purchase halberd for 1 point and spear for 2.

(spears, mind you, should have something that makes cavalry take impact hits since that was kind of the point of spears anyway... hah).

The arbalests we want to add would be a 0-2 special choice at 7 points for a new set of models that are easily converted at this stage... still unsure as to if we are keeping them.

To knights.

Grail knights are Rare, have the stats of a special.

Questing knights are a special that should be a core, really.

Kotr are just about right, though i would probably give them a points in crease to around 25-26 points with new lance.

Which would sit KE at around appropriate for 20 a pop.

Bretonnia lacks monsterous, which is rightly so since they generally run around and kill them. Pegasus knights don't hold the stat line of M.Cav in any real sense, but they do theyr part and fit the army well. Questing knights serve no purpose which is why i would happyily make them 30-35 points with re-rolls against terror and fear.

I would then give grail knights a +1 (they are the best damned knights in the book and they cant get better armour.. than their basic knights? whut?). The table, and raise them to 40-45 points.

There would need to be a points adjustment across the board on the knights and a re-tooling of statlines to match it as well - largely because we have rares and specials that dont do much more than core and specials and this needs to be addressed, really.

We also lack the amount of options that other armies have.

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Re: Bretonnia 8th Edition Update

Postby realnoob » Fri Jul 17, 2015 2:49 am

You could make the Ward save on Grail Knights work vs Magical and not Mundane attacks, much like BotWD. a 1+ save + that kind of ward would still be very, very useful - but less OP than some people worry a standard war would be. It'd also be somewhat fluffy, as they can be protected from Daemons and foul sorcery.

As to "we lack the options of other armies".....add them. You are rewriting an army book, you don't have to be constrained. You're already adding some units, so you're clearly not worried about doing that.

Brets used to be associated with Unicorns, so why not add Unicorns as Monstrous Cav? A 0-1 unit of blessed warriors riding Unicorns would be fluffy, and could be very powerful. You could even have the Unicorns ridden by Joan of Arc style warrior maids, dedicated to the Lady. Or even a mage-ish unit like Dark Elf Doomfire Warlocks, but again made up of maidens devoted to the lady.

You could also have monstrous infantry, as you are writing the book. What about guardians statues outside grail chapels that actually protect the chapel and surrounding countryside from the taint of evil? Stone statues of fallen heroes, roused to life and led into battle by a chapel guardian.

Not necessarily ideas you'll like, but the point is that you can follow the theme of an army but do whatever you like with the units. Plenty of changes could fit within your overall theme, and you don't necessarily need to use existing units as direct counters.

If such new units were 0-1 they wouldn't radically change the feel and look of the army, but could add much-needed variety and tactical diversity. Also, a bigger version of guardian statues could give you a fun monster to field - one knights wouldn't feel the need to slay.
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Re: Bretonnia 8th Edition Update

Postby MightyM00se » Fri Jul 17, 2015 3:11 am

You could make the Ward save on Grail Knights work vs Magical and not Mundane attacks, much like BotWD. a 1+ save + that kind of ward would still be very, very useful - but less OP than some people worry a standard war would be. It'd also be somewhat fluffy, as they can be protected from Daemons and foul sorcery.


Food for thought *ponder*

As to "we lack the options of other armies".....add them. You are rewriting an army book, you don't have to be constrained. You're already adding some units, so you're clearly not worried about doing that.


Problem is, if any change we make or additions i make are accepted by the greater community.. a vain hope i might add. It would require having models available or suitable analogues for them or conversion guides.

To that end, the current ones we have added are now are easily converted from existing components.

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Re: Bretonnia 8th Edition Update

Postby realnoob » Fri Jul 17, 2015 4:16 am

Unicorns are probably easy enough. An elven steed with a pointy stick on its head would do.
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Re: Bretonnia 8th Edition Update

Postby tulmir » Fri Jul 17, 2015 6:58 am

Grail Knights are the characters in the books. Only one Grail Knight can defeat Vampire Lord, Chaos Lord and Hellcanon by himself. So if we continue according to fluff you guys can add a Grail Knight character?

Also for Grail Knights, their base T must be T4 for sure, because they live very long according to fluff. My suggestions are

-keep them at same point and make them T4 or

-you can make them around 45 points and give them 4+WS (or maybe just MR1, not 4+WS).
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Re: Bretonnia 8th Edition Update

Postby Logan054 » Fri Jul 17, 2015 8:23 am

MightyM00se wrote:To knights.

Grail knights are Rare, have the stats of a special. .


No, this is simply a fallacy, they have the stats comparable to a special unit in a elite close combat army (WoC), an elite combat army whose core unit stats start much higher than in any other army, it has been this way since I started playing in 4th ed. Bret's however is a army of humans that ride horses and don't like guns. Based on the baseline stats of humans, they do not have the stats of a special units, special unit's do not tend to have stats comparable (bar wounds) to the heroes in the army.

Bretonnia lacks monsterous, which is rightly so since they generally run around and kill them. Pegasus knights don't hold the stat line of M.Cav in any real sense, but they do theyr part and fit the army well. Questing knights serve no purpose which is why i would happyily make them 30-35 points with re-rolls against terror and fear.


Peg knights simply require the wound upgrade which they should have, that is easily changed. Rerolling to hit and to wound is just too much, especially if this translates over to characters with HKB, that is just beyond stupid. Perhaps the purpose they could fill like so many other special units is simply being better than core troops.

I would then give grail knights a +1 (they are the best damned knights in the book and they cant get better armour.. than their basic knights? whut?). The table, and raise them to 40-45 points.


So they went and bought some platemail from the empire, so essentially, this is just making them into chaos knights with the lance formation. This is generally the issue with fan made bret lists, they think grail knights need to be chaos knights.

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Re: Bretonnia 8th Edition Update

Postby realnoob » Fri Jul 17, 2015 4:31 pm

I agree regarding the 1+ save.....the best armour in Bretonnia is not necessarily the best armour in the world. They lack advanced furnaces and other industrial developments, so perhaps it's fitting their armours are not quite up there with the Empire. French medieval armour was not as good as the German plate of the early Renaissance - and those are the cultural bases for the factions.

The power of the grail knights, in the fluff, is supposed to come from their blessing by the lady and personal skill anyway, rather than the quality of their equipment. That could be represented in a number of ways. The ward against magical attacks could be one, a holy aura producing -1 to hit in close combat could be another, magical attacks...the list goes on. There could be lots of ways to make them more robust/killy/useful without making them completely match up with other high-tier cavalry. Maybe blessed swords could be a good idea, something small that is a boost to their post-charge combat abilities - maybe -1 piercing and a bonus vs Daemons and Undead or some such.

As an aside: Regarding the arbalest troops, have you considered adding a bit of Estalian stuff to the fluff there? They are supposedly renowned for their crossbowmen in the standing fluff, and have a strong relationship with Bretonnia - being aided by them in the First Crusade against Jaffar. Eastalians settled in the south of Bretonnia at that time, and they fought alongside Bretonnians on several occasions. The southern Dukedoms straddle the realms, and would presumably make use of Estalian troops of various kinds.
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Re: Bretonnia 8th Edition Update

Postby MightyM00se » Sat Jul 18, 2015 11:45 am

tulmir wrote:Also for Grail Knights, their base T must be T4 for sure, because they live very long according to fluff. My suggestions are


But they are also, at the end of the day only human. Giving them T4 like in the good ole days isn'T the answer.

Interesting points about other methods of making GK's a bit different but also i suppose a bit "fresher" too. Will take them under advisement and re-remove the +1 armor for now. Modified roll list is getting some good feed back on both sides of the fence (have numerous people play testing with it now)

Peg knights simply require the wound upgrade which they should have, that is easily changed. Rerolling to hit and to wound is just too much, especially if this translates over to characters with HKB, that is just beyond stupid. Perhaps the purpose they could fill like so many other special units is simply being better than core troops.


Extra wound i am assuming for peg knight?

The questing knight change that has been viewed most favorably is the sword. Suggested to remove re-rolls against gear models as they are the most prevalent.

Other suggestion was +1 to hit against Monsterous For the first round of combat the mind set of a "niche" for them and raising them to 30 points.

The power of the grail knights, in the fluff, is supposed to come from their blessing by the lady and personal skill anyway, rather than the quality of their equipment. That could be represented in a number of ways. The ward against magical attacks could be one, a holy aura producing -1 to hit in close combat could be another...

As an aside: Regarding the arbalest troops, have you considered adding a bit of Estalian stuff to the fluff there? They are supposedly renowned for their crossbowmen in the standing fluff, and have a strong relationship with Bretonnia - being aided by them in the First Crusade against Jaffar...


Interesting thoughts on the GK's...might be worth drumming up a few ideas and talking to the lads about it. And also, there was info in there about Estalia and it still remains in the original drafing of information. When i make some printoffs for cut/paste that will be available.

Grail Knights are the characters in the books. Only one Grail Knight can defeat Vampire Lord, Chaos Lord and Hellcanon by himself. So if we continue according to fluff you guys can add a Grail Knight character?


I would love to have a grail character, got some ideas for one, and a few little characters here and there (battle pilgrim character i have running around in my noggin and 3d's for him when it gets soe play testing to be printed, worked and cast in resin.)

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Re: Bretonnia 8th Edition Update

Postby Marcai » Sun Jul 19, 2015 1:06 am

Hey, I joined the forums to make this post, and it seems fitting to start it by say that I'm loving the rules you've written so far. The idea of counter-charging war dogs in my peasant units made me laugh with a couple of my friends for quite a while, and I want you to know how much I personally appreciate any attempt to update the Brets whilst still keeping their lore and 'feel' intact, but granting much-needed diversity.

Logan054 wrote:
MightyM00se wrote:So they went and bought some platemail from the empire, so essentially, this is just making them into chaos knights with the lance formation. This is generally the issue with fan made bret lists, they think grail knights need to be chaos knights.



Adressing the above comment, I apologise if I come across as a bit fanboy-ey in this first comment, but Grail Knights are not 'just humans' in the fluff. We know that many have single-handedly slain dragons, vampires and other nigh-unkillable foes in the Warhammer World to achieve their status. They are living saints, who -for those who know the End Times fluff- were literally chosen for being the *best* that humanity could to offer and divine powers to protect the land from evil. Those who had supped from the grail did so because their goddess had personally selected to become the new gods of humanity. We are talking literal walking demigods, not 'just humans'.

To say that they are the walking incarnates of knighthood, divine paragons of combat, they seem somewhat lacklustre for what they currently bring to the table; the fact that they die just as easily as our other knights is one of the primary reasons for that. Whilst perhaps T4 and 1+ sv (the latter of which I'm not a big fan of) might seem a bit of a copycat way of dealing with this, it is both a way to satisfy the lore of the Grail Knights *and* a way of making them a more viable choice to taken in the army, when they are sharing a Rare Unit slot with what I personally see as the near-mandatory 1-2 trebuchets required to deal with hordes.

Whilst I haven't playtested anything like this, I think it would be very interesting to see each Grail Knight a single 1W character model that occupies the Rare Unit slot for maybe 45-50 pts per model. T4 and something akin to the Slayer rule of wounding anything on a 4+ unless they would do better already, cannot join only join units wholly composed of models with the Grail Vow (thus encouraging them to be banded together), perhaps can spend up to 30pts on items for each model. That way, we make roving character-units that come from the Rare Unit slot, emphasising the Bretonnian character of a hero-driven army, a pretty neat little mechanic that satisfies both lore and uniqueness without stepping on toes and simply making them "like x but not".
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Re: Bretonnia 8th Edition Update

Postby MightyM00se » Sun Jul 19, 2015 12:02 pm

Link in main post updated.

I appreciate that i gave you a chuckle - there are quite a few things like that, that can be done to give the brets a bit more flavour. Still working on the hunting dogs and their viability! but so far they have been an amusing and zany little things to give the !@#$ kickers.

Feed back so far has been pretty good with the clincher being the "attention of the lady" right now. It may make them a little to much cost/benefits.

Now, there is a thought for grail knights that didnt cross my mind - treat them like "budget paladins" of sorts in lieu of a better way of putting it. I suppose, in a way i wanted to try and augent/modify as best i could before considering a ground up rebuild. In a way make it a living army book, if anyone started to use my paltry attempts, and build up to some of these things. It must tickle a few people as ive had some folk ask if they could sketch up one or two of the new named characters that are currently sitting at the end of the document.

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Re: Bretonnia 8th Edition Update

Postby Delaqure » Mon Jul 20, 2015 5:39 pm

I think grail knights definitely need changing. Here's what I would do and the reasons for it. However I would change the vows rather than the knights. This way any model that has the vow has these abilities.

Grail Vow- as living saints who have endured the trials and sipped from grail they embody the greatest ideals of Bretonnia. Virtue and Combat.
30 pts for Lords
20 pts for Paladins


1. They get an upgrade to the blessing vs magical attacks. The blessing goes from 6+/5+ to 5+/4+ vs magical attacks.
This is because they are living saints.
2. They get devastating charge
3. They are immune to psychology
4. Magical Attacks

Questing Vow- They are on a quest for the grail and are performing great deeds in combat for their quest. They are nearly fearless. The questing vow provides the following benefits.

1. Reroll all failed fear or terror tests
2. May carry a lance OR two handed weapon.
3. They are stubborn vs any model with monstrous or monster in their description.
20 pts for Lord
10 pts for Paladin

For all vows keep the ability to lose the blessing if they flee or break.

As far as the rest of the book I would do the following:
Free champions for knight units
All musicians and standards +10 points each.

For core.
Peasant Bowmen-5 pts
Stakes- allow no charge bonuses mounts my not attack
Man at Arms- 5 pts
for + 25 pts a unit of men at Arms may have warhounds. When a men at arms unit is charge They may "release the hounds!" When the charging unit reaches 8" from the Men at Arms the hounds charge out and attack the charging unit. The charging unit must stop the charge and fight the hounds effectively halting the charge against the Men at Arms.
Hounds Stats- M6 WS3 BS- S4 T3 W1 I4 A1 L7 AS- Unit size 5
Knights of the realm- 22 pts
Errant Knights- 19 pts
Make Mounted yeoman core

For specials
1. Yeoman on foot with bows with the following. (10 pts) minimum 5
Lt armor +1 pt
Scouts
2. Pegasus knights
3 wounds
Ability to take a magic banner up to 25 pts
3. Questing Knights 30 pts
Ability to take a magic Banner up to 50 pts.
Champion can take 1 magic weapon or armor up to 25 pts
Models may have mixed weapons with some carrying lances and some with great weapons
4. Grail Relaqure- 75 pts pilgrims remain the same

Rare
Grail Knights- 40 pts
one model may have 1 magic weapon or one magic armor up to 50 pts

Spirits of the realm- Ghostly figures that rise from the mists to fight for Brettonia
At the beginning of the Bretonnian turn roll a dice. On a 4+ the unit arrives on the battlefield. Place the unit within 3" of any natural terrain piece facing any direction. The unit may not charge on the turn it arrives but may move or shoot as normal. The unit is ethreal.
1. Knights- knight stats max models 3
30 pts
2. Peasant Bowman- peasant stats 12 pts minimum 5 max unit 10
3. Questing Knights- Questing knight stats max models 3 40 pts
4. Grail Knights- Grail knight stats max models 3 55 pts

Trebuchet- 125 pts

Hippogriffs- 140 pts

Other Changes- Magic Weapons priced as BRB.

More later.

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Re: Bretonnia 8th Edition Update

Postby Solution9 » Mon Jul 20, 2015 11:09 pm

I would like to put in my 2 cents if I may. Like many of you I'm an old school Bretonnian player. Personally (and I hope I don't come across as too fanboyish) they way I see how the army should be handled is this. 1) Across the board point cost reduction (unless the direction of all other armies in this 9th ed being made goes in point increase direction). 2) Arrow head lance formation (ok I'll admit that is just wishful thinking). Here is the thing, to me that is what drew me to play Bretonnians in the first place. Ascetically speaking it is awesome looking and gives them that sense of a unique looking army on the table (agin ascetically speaking) 3) If to keep the current lace formation as it is I would add Devastating charge when a lance charges in to any unit (that should in theory bring the army up to speed with other armies out there as is). 4) Questing nights remove the 'always strikes last' rule and it would make them more useful and taken more often for variety. 5) Some of the units made by 'http://warhammerarmiesproject.blogspot.com/' has a lot of great ideas that can be take from there. But hey that's my 2 cents. If to tear that to shreds (please go easy :D )

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Re: Bretonnia 8th Edition Update

Postby MightyM00se » Tue Jul 21, 2015 4:29 am

I think grail knights definitely need changing. Here's what I would do and the reasons for it. However I would change the vows rather than the knights. This way any model that has the vow has these abilities.

Grail Vow- as living saints who have endured the trials and sipped from grail they embody the greatest ideals of Bretonnia. Virtue and Combat.
30 pts for Lords
20 pts for Paladins


1. They get an upgrade to the blessing vs magical attacks. The blessing goes from 6+/5+ to 5+/4+ vs magical attacks.
This is because they are living saints.
2. They get devastating charge
3. They are immune to psychology
4. Magical Attacks


So physical attacks would remain 6+/5+?
Questing Vow- They are on a quest for the grail and are performing great deeds in combat for their quest. They are nearly fearless. The questing vow provides the following benefits.

1. Reroll all failed fear or terror tests
2. May carry a lance OR two handed weapon.
3. They are stubborn vs any model with monstrous or monster in their description.
20 pts for Lord
10 pts for Paladin


Interesting, though I don't think they should have a lance. I feel that the idea of the questing sword (hand weap/great weap) is probably the best idea. I do like the idea of stubborn against monsterous/monster as I feel that would be more fluffy than rerolls...and stubborn didn't occur to me. mind If I definitely use that?

For all vows keep the ability to lose the blessing if they flee or break.

As far as the rest of the book I would do the following:
Free champions for knight units
All musicians and standards +10 points each.


Rationale or 10 points? it kind of evens out when you look at, is it common to have both mus/Sb be same points cost?

For core.
Peasant Bowmen-5 pts
Stakes- allow no charge bonuses mounts my not attack

Mounts cannot attack? interesting. So ignore them as flat fence/obstacle and give them their own set of rules again. I does make sense. Mounts wouldn't be able to get past the spikes.

Man at Arms- 5 pts
for + 25 pts a unit of men at Arms may have warhounds. When a men at arms unit is charge They may "release the hounds!" When the charging unit reaches 8" from the Men at Arms the hounds charge out and attack the charging unit. The charging unit must stop the charge and fight the hounds effectively halting the charge against the Men at Arms.
Hounds Stats- M6 WS3 BS- S4 T3 W1 I4 A1 L7 AS- Unit size 5


thoughts on 4 pt men at arms with sword/board? And it was my idea to give the hounds to bowmen since they would be more likely to have them - given they would general as peasants (fluff) have to hunt their own food. For now, I think bowmen will keep these.


Knights of the realm- 22 pts
Errant Knights- 19 pts
Make Mounted yeoman core


Im sorry, but if you give lance disrupted as I have, 22 points is too soft. 20/24 is perfect.

For specials
1. Yeoman on foot with bows with the following. (10 pts) minimum 5
Lt armor +1 pt
Scouts
2. Pegasus knights
3 wounds
Ability to take a magic banner up to 25 pts

3. Questing Knights 30 pts
Ability to take a magic Banner up to 50 pts.
Champion can take 1 magic weapon or armor up to 25 pts
Models may have mixed weapons with some carrying lances and some with great weapons


This interests me. But I am not sure I like the idea of mixed weapon units. But for questing it would make sense given they would have a weapon for every occasion. Will talk to the lads about his one.

4. Grail Relaqure- 75 pts pilgrims remain the same

Im still in half a mind to make a character or option for battle pilgrims to be taken themselves without the relic (one extra unit for every grail knight unit on the table and intrinsically tied to that unit somehow)


Rare
Grail Knights- 40 pts
one model may have 1 magic weapon or one magic armor up to 50 pts


No love for the benediction table at all? I feel a bit sad at the people hating on it haha! but that's okay. thought h more I think about this, this might actually move into "bretonnian battle magic". called "The lady's benediction" - harder to cast if the army doesn't pray, easier to cast on grail vows.

Spirits of the realm- Ghostly figures that rise from the mists to fight for Brettonia
At the beginning of the Bretonnian turn roll a dice. On a 4+ the unit arrives on the battlefield. Place the unit within 3" of any natural terrain piece facing any direction. The unit may not charge on the turn it arrives but may move or shoot as normal. The unit is ethreal.
1. Knights- knight stats max models 3
30 pts
2. Peasant Bowman- peasant stats 12 pts minimum 5 max unit 10
3. Questing Knights- Questing knight stats max models 3 40 pts
4. Grail Knights- Grail knight stats max models 3 55 pts


This is something I was contemplating about for "lore of the lady" actually.

Trebuchet- 125 pts

Hippogriffs- 140 pts


I can agree to both of these. Considering a hippogriff unit for rare or special. But not sure just now.

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Re: Bretonnia 8th Edition Update

Postby MightyM00se » Tue Jul 21, 2015 8:19 am

Some of the units made by 'http://warhammerarmiesproject.blogspot.com/' has a lot of great ideas that can be take from there. But hey that's my 2 cents. If to tear that to shreds (please go easy.


One of the problems with the bretonnian army in that one is>
- Foot soldiers are all but otiose in bretonnia. since Reynolds+ (03 onwards) it has been knights on horses, peasants afoot. The only outlier being yeoman as they are a hold over from pre-reboot mounted squires.

Crusaders/templar - they are called errant. Bretonnia doesnt have crusades, it has erranty wars as its the only way to become a knight of the realm.

there are a few other things in that book that seem far to fanboyish and honestly, only work in the sphere of all the other books he has written.

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Re: Bretonnia 8th Edition Update

Postby Marcai » Tue Jul 21, 2015 11:37 am

MightyM00se wrote:No love for the benediction table at all? I feel a bit sad at the people hating on it haha! but that's okay. thought h more I think about this, this might actually move into "bretonnian battle magic". called "The lady's benediction" - harder to cast if the army doesn't pray, easier to cast on grail vows.

Hey I thought it was quite cool! I guess the issue is that it leaves the effectiveness of the knights up the chance, which can really effect how useful they are *after* the unit has been deployed. I think what could be cool would be a special item or charcter which grants it to the wielder; you pay for the randomness. Something like the Moulder character in the Skaven book who mutates Rat Ogres in a random way at the start of the battle?

I do love the sound of Bretonnia Battle Magic having a Lore Attribute of being +1/+2 to cast on units which have the Blessing of the Lady. I mean, that *does* make us even more dependant on it than we already are, but is a fitting mechanic for the army. Signature Spell perhaps being to invoke the Blessing on a unit which previously lost the blessing, making our magic phase about re-buffing prior to casting- sticking to defensive magic over offensive in a way we already naturally do.


MightyM00se wrote:
Trebuchet- 125 pts

Hippogriffs- 140 pts


I can agree to both of these. Considering a hippogriff unit for rare or special. But not sure just now.



I can get behind the idea of a monstrous unit for Bretonnia (Variety, yay!), but how would a Hipogryph unit function? The lore on them (coming from the Bretonnia book + WHFRP Bestiary) has them as somewhat less intelligent than griffon, harder to train and generally more savage.

Old World Bestiary wrote:"Hippogriffs [sic] desire for warm flesh is so great that those around them can literally sense their terrible hunger"

"Vicious scavengers, they have all of t' savagery of a Griffon, but none of t' nobility. They'll eat any meat they manage t' come across. Why, living or dead, it just don't make no difference. Surly beasts, too. Even those who've been up an' broke fer the saddle will snap at ye if ye come t' close. The Bretonnians only took t' 'em cause they were jealous of the Empire's Griffons. 'Course, you tell one that, you'll likely as not get skewered on his lance."
-Old Hob, peasant farmer

"Many of my fellows would say that the Pegasus is the grandest mount that any knight could ever aspire to. They speak of the Pegasi's grace, beauty and speed, extolling these as the greatest virtues to be had in any beast. But the only virtue I see in speed is if it gets me to the battlefield quicker, there is grace enough for me in the clash of arms and I forgot how to perceive beauty years ago. I don't expect tricks from my mount, I expect carnage and I get it from Eliaos, my Hippogriff. Let other knights have their elegant winged horses, I prefer my savage friend."
-Lord Gildas Frangeau, Bretonnian noble


The Old World Bestiary also tellingly stats Hippogryphs to be lower in Weapon Skill, slightly lower in Strength and Agility, but low enough to not really matter in game terms. Whilst they both have the same animalistic Intellect, the Will Power stat of the Gryphon is far superior to that of the Hippogryph, essentially translating as its Leadership. The one perk of the Hippogryph above the Griffon is a far higher Perception scores, although how one could use this in rules I'm not sure. Of course, all of this information is from a third party supplement, so take that as you will.

I would make a guess that an unridden Hippogryph unit would be best represented by having the Frenzy and Stupidity rules, and maybe it can never pursue as its consumes the dead in a manner similar to the Kroot in 40k. If it fails a Stupidity rule and within 6" of a unit (friend or foe), either force the nearest unit to take a Terror test. Alternatively, immediately resolve 1d6 attacks against the unit exactly as if charged by the Hippogrph, but as neither unit remains engaged, resolve these as exactly as you would shooting attacks. If the unit suffers 25% casualties, it takes Panic as normal. To offset these penalties, they could come at a pretty low cost compared to normal monster units.

Aaand I went on a ramble there. Hope there's something useful in those suggestions!
That which is sacrosanct I shall preserve,
That which is sublime I will protect
That which threatens, I will destroy,
For my holy wrath knows no bounds.


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