Bretonnia

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Re: Bretonnia 8th Edition Update

Postby DiscoKing » Tue Jul 21, 2015 11:52 pm

I like some of the changes here.

personally though I like the idea of Grail Knights just getting the -1 hit vs undead, daemons etc, without their hand weapons having to to be used.
I don't see a reason for it to be conditional.

Also Grails & Questing Knights should be T4 IMO.
& Peg Knights +1 wound.

But this is good stuff so far.

I imagine Hippogryphs will go to the point values in Storm of Magic?
(140, down from 200).
Maybe access to Paladins too?

Maybe Unicorn/Pegasus access for Damsels/Prophetesses?

Somehow I feel that Devastating Charge is a rule made for Brets, but it's finding a way into the army without making them broken.
perhaps when charging with their BSB? Or when rolling 10+ on the charge (like ogres impact hits).
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Re: Bretonnia 8th Edition Update

Postby MightyM00se » Wed Jul 22, 2015 12:22 am

Using external fluff (bl/ffg) and other stuff involved.

One could make an "Order of Taal". Taal priests being that of beasts and what not - Maybe one was grazy enough to merge a harragryn (BL/FFG) with a pegasus or griffin.

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Re: Bretonnia 8th Edition Update

Postby MightyM00se » Wed Jul 22, 2015 11:11 am

Lore of the Lady (WiP)

Lore Attribute
The Blessed, be blessed.
Boon to blessing

Signiature Spell 8+
Return To grace – A model or unit within 12” that has lost the blessing, provided they are not currently fleeing regain the blessing.

1. Wrathful Fey Spirits.

2. Grail Succor. Augment 6 or 7+
A target model within 24” may recover all of its wounds.

3. Shield of the Faithful. Augment
+4 Ward Save against missile weapons. Remains in play.

4. Resolve of the grail companion.

5. The Lady’s Visiage. Augment 12+/20+(push)
A Target unit that is fleeing within 12” may automatically rally as they have seen the very image of their deity before them. If this spell is pushed, that unit must make an out of sequence charge at the closest enemy. If the charge fails or is otherwise illegal it must move the maximum distance on the dice. Once this has been resolved the spell is removed from play.

6. Ancients of the Bretonni. Direct Damage 18/24.
The spirits of ancient bretonni horse lords are called forth from their slumber.


Spitballing/wetdreaming.
Last edited by MightyM00se on Thu Jul 23, 2015 1:24 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Bretonnia 8th Edition Update

Postby tulmir » Wed Jul 22, 2015 11:48 am

Just throwing some ideas here:

1) Unit gains +1 to hit and/or wound against armies of destruction until the caster's next turn

2) Unit gains Immune to Psychology and Magical attacks until the caster's next turn
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Re: Bretonnia 8th Edition Update

Postby Marcai » Wed Jul 22, 2015 1:31 pm

MightyM00se wrote:Lore of the Lady (WiP)

Lore Attribute
The Blessed, be blessed.

I assume this is as I mentioned before, a simple bonus to casting on units who have the blessing already?

MightyM00se wrote:Signature Spell 8+
Return To grace – A model or unit within 12” that has lost the blessing, provided they are not currently fleeing regain the blessing

Again, fluffy, simple and effective, sums Brets up nicely. Question being, will this work on units who never had the blessing? Ie, peasant units, monsters, ridden monsters, etc?

MightyM00se wrote:1. Wrathful Fey Spirits.

Magic missile? Something weak akin to 2d6 Str2 hits, but it becomes Str4 if the enemy is within 6" of a forest/water terrain piece? Alternatively, we could say that they are stampeded over by a Lance of spectral knights, taking D3 Str5 hits per rank to simulate the formation running through them.

MightyM00se wrote: 2. Grail Succour. Augment 6 or 7+
A target model within 24” may recover all of its wounds.

I assume we use the words "cannot exceed it's starting amount"? Could add a secondary version of this for models with the Grail Vow where they can exceed their starting wounds by +1 per time this is cast on them whilst at full health?

MightyM00se wrote: 3. Shield of the Faithful. Augment
+4 Ward Save against missile weapons. Remains in play.

Perfect as-is. Question being whether "missile weapons" includes artillery and magic missiles should be addressed in the text.

MightyM00se wrote: 4. Resolve of the grail companion.

Suggestion: A single knightly (non-peasant) character within range gains Leadership 10 and Stubborn until the caster's next Magic Phase, conferring the Stubborn rule to any unit they have joined during this time. Additionally, the character may ignore the first wound suffered until the spell effect ends.
This would make it our only way of getting a Ld10 on the table (unless Louen is upped to 10, which I feel he probably should) will therefore be magic, but when we get it, we have a unit that can hold the line and very rarely flee, but still suffers Panic, Fear and Terror tests as to not break the game.

MightyM00se wrote: 5. The Lady’s Visage. Augment 12+/20+(push)
A Target unit that is fleeing within 12” may automatically rally as they have seen the very image of their deity before them. If this spell is pushed, that unit must make an out of sequence charge at the closest enemy. If the charge fails or is otherwise illegal it must move the maximum distance on the dice. Once this has been resolved the spell is removed from play.

I like it. Probably will say "the effect ends" rather than "removed from play", just for semantics. Nothing to add, difficulty in casting makes it pretty balanced, if not a little *too* difficult considering that, Pit of Shades is a 14+, Purple Sun is 15+, turning into a dragon is 16+ and Dwellers is 18+, both of which are *far* more likely to kill models 'safely' than a knight charge.

MightyM00se wrote: 6. Ancients of the Bretonni. Direct Damage 18/24.
The spirits of ancient bretonni horse lords are called forth from their slumber.

Technical necromancy? In my Bretonnia?! It's more likely than you think.
In all seriousness, sounds awesome. We will likely have to mess with the fluff so it's not necromancy, or alternatively leave it ambiguous to play with that whole grey line between being shining exemplars of good guys and occasional hypocrites. Quite easy with the End Times fluff to say that the spirits of Bretonnian Grail Knights do not go to Morr, but instead remain to defend the land, so you're not actually breaking the 'rules' of bringing them back from the dead- their spirits never went there to begin with.
I was actually thinking of suggesting that rather tahn a Direct Damage spell, this could be used similarly the Legions of Death summoning spell of character-summoning. Say 150 point of non-named, non-wizard character(s). These have the same stats as a Bretonnian Lord/Paladin, but gain the Ethereal, Unbreakable and Unstable special rules. Alternatively I'd love to here of what you had in mind.

As usual, hope the C&C is useful.
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Re: Bretonnia 8th Edition Update

Postby MightyM00se » Wed Jul 22, 2015 11:24 pm

Just as to where these came from...


All of these are somehow intrinsically tied to lore and fluff of bretonnia in some way.

Wrathful fey spirits refers to the destruction of an orc warband by the forest spirits during one of the 12 battles at inception of bretonnia.

Grail Succor, is where the lady refreshes the grail knights and warriors over night before the next major battle.

Shield of faith. Gilles, bolt to the chest, restored by a grail maiden.

Resolve of the companion, was going with stubborn but i like immune to psych for a turn. Budget grail vow...

Lady's visiage, refers to the 6th or 7th battle where the knights were spurred on by the vision of the lady.

Ancients is the interesting one. Some fluff reads that grail knights last quest is to seek the lady. To render themselves unto her for future service whereupon they are put into a slumber and restored until a day she needs them once more. That and there are cairns of ancient horse lords buried beneath the soil that build the foundations of bretonnia. If we tread into the lore on whom the lady is based off, the "lake" is the celtic underworld and she is its guardian. So... there is no doubt some necromancy involved in a round about way. Not to mention following the end times the lady raised Loues from his death... twice.

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Re: Bretonnia 8th Edition Update

Postby valourunbound » Thu Jul 23, 2015 3:54 am

I don't play Bretonnians, so maybe this idea may not fit with the army. But I've been thinking about it since this a few pages ago, and the most recent posts bring it back to me, so maybe it'll be useful.

Maybe, instead of summoning a new model/unit permanently, you could summon one temporarily.
The idea floating around my mind is something like this:

Ancients of the Bretonni
Call upon the ancient heroes of Bretonnia to help your units in combat against your foes
Casting value: 24+
Augment (ish)
Range: 24"
Target a friendly knight unit in combat. If successfully cast, summon a unit of 9 Ethereal Grail Knights in lance formation 1" away from the target, facing the same direction. This unit immediately charges the enemy unit that the target is in combat with, on the same side of the enemy that the target is on (no getting flanks if you're in the front, etc). This unit fights in the next combat round, then vanishes at the Lady's call, off to help other faithful.


Ethereal is so that you can't ignore the spell, in the case of White Lions or something where they might wipe out the unit. The casting value might be too high, it depends what Grail Knights end up doing. The idea was that this spell can help when you are forced to charge something you really don't want to. The description will need to be tighter, so the spell can't be abused.
It's an augment mostly because direct damage is boring. The spell could be simplified to: Deal (3 models in front, 3 behind that, 2 behind that with lance) 16 WS5 S6 attacks. Or, you could just make it 2d6 S6 hits, it all ends up about the same. This spell is way cooler than that. It also has the added bonus of being able to take a challenge for a turn. If the character doesn't have a magic weapon, good deal. If it does, oh well, that was free.
Last edited by valourunbound on Thu Jul 23, 2015 4:03 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Bretonnia 8th Edition Update

Postby MightyM00se » Thu Jul 23, 2015 3:57 am

Lore of the Lady (WiP)

Lore Attribute
The Blessed, be blessed.
The blessing confers deeply magical properties to those whom are deemed worthy. It makes them receptive vessels for the will of the Lady.

Any model that has been affected by the blessing adds +1 to the magic dice. Any model or unit that has the Grail vow adds +2.

Signiature Spell
Return To grace 8+
The Grail maidens act as surrogate priestesses to The Lady, theirs too is the right to forgive, and abolish sins.

A model or unit within 12" of that has lost the blessing, provided they are not currently fleeing or not eligible for the blessing as per the page 45 of the Bretonnian army book. This unit is subject to the same conditions as the blessing originally, meaning they may lose it again. (*Note:- A unit affected by the Prayer Icon of Quenelles may also regain this blessing should it be lost. However if the model that has this item is removed from play, the blessing will remain lost.)

1. Wrathful Fey Spirits.
This spell i wracking my brain as to what i can use that is unique and not like other spells. Maybe the unit, for the next turn counts as being in a venom thicket. not sure.

2. Grail Succor. 7+
A Maiden, shining white, lays her hands on the battered and bruised. Their fatigue is lifted and their bruises heal as the ethereal light fades.

A target model within 12" may recover all of its wounds up to its original starting value. This may be pushed on a 12+ to recover all the models wounds and d3 wounds in the unit the model is attached to divided how the player chooses. This may not increase the model or the unit above its starting wound value. (I.e Knights don't suddenly spawn into existence).

3. Shield of the Faithful. 8+
The hatred of missile weapons is deeply ingrained in the soul of bretonnia, though their peasant levy make use of them, there is still an undertone of disgust. This can be traced back to that cowardly bolt that felled Gilles.

This is an augment spell. A unit within 12" gains a 6+ ward save against all missile and artillery weapons (Excluding magic missiles) until the start of the next magic phase. This can be pushed on a roll of a 14" to be a 5+ ward save against all missile and artillery.

4. Resolve of the grail companion.

5. The Lady’s Visiage. 12+
This is an augment spell that can be used on a target unit within 12" that is fleeing. That unit may automatically rally and reform as they see their very deity before them redirecting them at their quarry. If this spell is pushed on a roll of a 20+ the unit may make an out of sequence charge at the closest enemy. If the charge fails or is otherwise illegal it must move the maximum distance on the dice following all standard movement restrictions. Once this has been resolved the effect ends.

6. Ancients of the Bretonni. 24+.
The lands of bretonnia are mystic indeed. It is said that the knights of the past, slain enacting great deeds, never truly leave the realm. Their very spirits held, bound by the Lady, Awaiting their time to be borne a new and fight once more for the land.

Target a friendly knight unit in combat. If successfully cast, summon a unit of 9 Ethereal Grail Knights in lance formation 1" away from the target, facing the same direction. This unit immediately charges the enemy unit that the target is in combat with, on the same side of the enemy that the target is on (no getting flanks if you're in the front, etc). This unit fights in the next combat round, then vanishes at the Lady's call, off to help other faithful.
Last edited by MightyM00se on Thu Jul 23, 2015 6:24 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Bretonnia 8th Edition Update

Postby MightyM00se » Thu Jul 23, 2015 4:11 am

valourunbound wrote:The idea floating around my mind is something like this:

Ancients of the Bretonni
Call upon the ancient heroes of Bretonnia to help your units in combat against your foes
Casting value: 24+
Augment (ish)
Range: 24"
Target a friendly knight unit in combat. If successfully cast, summon a unit of 9 Ethereal Grail Knights in lance formation 1" away from the target, facing the same direction. This unit immediately charges the enemy unit that the target is in combat with, on the same side of the enemy that the target is on (no getting flanks if you're in the front, etc). This unit fights in the next combat round, then vanishes at the Lady's call, off to help other faithful.



This is something i was actualyl thinking of myself! hah! great minds yadda yadda... but i feel it could be OP...

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Re: Bretonnia 8th Edition Update

Postby valourunbound » Thu Jul 23, 2015 4:19 am

I feel like it wouldn't be that op. It has more counterplay than most #6 spells. At least you can make armor and wards saves vs this one :)

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Re: Bretonnia 8th Edition Update

Postby MightyM00se » Thu Jul 23, 2015 4:21 am

Thats fair. i suppose these are supposed to be "support" spells. But i want someone to tell me that invocation of hex isnt balls! :D

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Re: Bretonnia 8th Edition Update

Postby valourunbound » Thu Jul 23, 2015 4:58 am

I'm sure you're tired of talking about spells for now. Oh well :P

MightyM00se wrote:1. Wrathful Fey Spirits.
This spell i wracking my brain as to what i can use that is unique and not like other spells. Maybe the unit, for the next turn counts as being in a venom thicket. not sure.

I hate dangerous terrain. I hate Curse of Anraheir more. I'm pretty sure that the most unique spell you'll get is 3d6 WS2 S2 attacks. And that isn't very unique. There needs to be some sort of magic missile, for warhound clear, etc.

MightyM00se wrote:2. Grail Succor. 7+
A Maiden, shining white, lays her hands on the battered and bruised. Their fatigue is lifted and their bruises heal as the ethereal light fades.

A target model within 12" may recover all of its wounds up to its original starting value. This may be pushed on a 12+ to recover all the models wounds and d3 wounds in the unit the model is attached to divided how the player chooses.

So cast on a Paladin, gain a few more knights? I can dig it. However, with this spell you have to be very careful about adding monsters to the army.

MightyM00se wrote:3. Shield of the Faithful. 8+
The hatred of missile weapons is deeply ingrained in the soul of bretonnia, though their peasant levy make use of them, there is still an undertone of disgust. This can be traced back to that cowardly bolt that felled Gilles.

This is an augment spell. A unit within 12" gains a 6+ ward save against all missile and artillery weapons (Excluding magic missiles) until the start of the next magic phase. This can be pushed on a roll of a 14+ to be a 5+ ward save against all missile and artillery.

Why not increase the ward save given by the blessing? Because I can tell you right now, I would never cast this on peasants. Or anyone else, for that matter. Maybe make the mega version an aura?

MightyM00se wrote:4. Resolve of the grail companion.

I got nothing right now. But I liked ItP for a turn. And I don't like summoning a[nything] paladin.


MightyM00se wrote:5. The Lady’s Visiage. 12+
This is an augment spell that can be used on a target unit within 12" that is fleeing. That unit may automatically rally and reform as they see their very deity before them redirecting them at their quarry. If this spell is pushed on a roll of a 20+ the unit may make an out of sequence charge at the closest enemy. If the charge fails or is otherwise illegal it must move the maximum distance on the dice following all standard movement restrictions. Once this has been resolved the effect ends.

Out of sequence charge, eh. Back in my day, you could get those on an 8+!
Also, Light of Battle. which rallies a unit and makes them pass all leadership tests for a turn casts on a 9+. I say keep the mega version at 20, but drop the normal to 7 or 8.
Now that I think about it, this spell is going to be VERY situational. You have to fail to rally on your turn, and after you flee, you have to roll (on average) 1" more than you fled in order to make the charge. I guess if you end up fleeing closed to another enemy, this could be useful.

MightyM00se wrote:6. Ancients of the Bretonni. Direct Damage 18/24.
The spirits of ancient bretonni horse lords are called forth from their slumber


You already know my thoughts on this one :)

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Re: Bretonnia 8th Edition Update

Postby MightyM00se » Thu Jul 23, 2015 5:16 am

Part of game design is ripping stuff apart and talking about it ad nauseum.

For number 2. It kind of acts like a budget regrowth. Though you cant pull knights out from no where. The unit must have already had them there or killed. Except that it is more focused on keeping characters alive as they are the razor sharp needle of our army.

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Re: Bretonnia 8th Edition Update

Postby MightyM00se » Thu Jul 23, 2015 6:26 am

For Ancients.

i think the "ethereals" should simply be a clone of the unit that it is cast on

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Re: Bretonnia 8th Edition Update

Postby MightyM00se » Thu Jul 23, 2015 8:07 am

tulmir wrote:Just throwing some ideas here:

1) Unit gains +1 to hit and/or wound against armies of destruction until the caster's next turn

2) Unit gains Immune to Psychology and Magical attacks until the caster's next turn


I think #2 might end up being the "Grail companions" one.

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Re: Bretonnia 8th Edition Update

Postby Marcai » Thu Jul 23, 2015 5:14 pm

valourunbound wrote:
MightyM00se wrote:3. Shield of the Faithful. 8+
The hatred of missile weapons is deeply ingrained in the soul of bretonnia, though their peasant levy make use of them, there is still an undertone of disgust. This can be traced back to that cowardly bolt that felled Gilles.

This is an augment spell. A unit within 12" gains a 6+ ward save against all missile and artillery weapons (Excluding magic missiles) until the start of the next magic phase. This can be pushed on a roll of a 14+ to be a 5+ ward save against all missile and artillery.

Why not increase the ward save given by the blessing? Because I can tell you right now, I would never cast this on peasants. Or anyone else, for that matter. Maybe make the mega version an aura?


Gotta agree here, we have 6+ ward saves against *all* weapons as it is, a spell which grants it again seems a bit redundant. Peasants are the only ones who could benefit, and frankly they're not usually worth spending the effort saving. Perhaps it could work like the old Lore of Life The Wind Howls (I think it was called), where missiles below Str5 which hit the unit are ignored? Either that or "unit counts as in hard cover"? Useless against Wood Elves' heat-seeking arrows, but I'm sure the Lady would love that 8-[


Mightymoose wrote:Resolve of the companion, was going with stubborn but i like immune to psych for a turn. Budget grail vow...

Could work, although it does seem to me that again, its made redundant when considering we already have Immune to Psychology with Errant on the charge, improved Ld vs fear with Questing Knights and totally immune on Grail Vow. Pretty much leaves peasants and KotR the people to cast this on, and I don't think I'd waste the power dice as I'd already have declared charges and taken the relevant Ld tests by this point in the turn.


Musing out loud here, but I do miss the old Mistress of the Marsh effect where we could just create a swamp for a turn. Was great for counter-play against enemies getting close to winning the charge against you and it fits with the Lady of the Lake's watery themes. Magical item that allows you to spawn a non-mysterious swamp maybe? It's no Acorn of Ages, but could be really useful for us.
That which is sacrosanct I shall preserve,
That which is sublime I will protect
That which threatens, I will destroy,
For my holy wrath knows no bounds.


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