Uncertain Ranges

This is for rules development, house rules and the like

Moderator: Keepers of the Peace

User avatar
leopard
Posts: 2415
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 9:22 pm
Anti-Spam Filter: No
Pick number 4 to enter: 4
Location: Wolverton, Milton Keynes
Contact:

Uncertain Ranges

Postby leopard » Sun Sep 22, 2013 12:19 pm

Working on my own ruleset, which has pre-measuring in throughout - I want to bring an element of uncertainty to distances however.

Looking at the GW 'charge' mechanic got me thinking, What I'm proposing is the following and I wonder of peoples thoughts.

Concept is to take the fact that you 'know' the range, and convert that into what a general on the ground would 'know', which is an estimate only based on judgement of the distance, ground and wind conditions etc.

What you measure on the table is defined as Physical Range, at the point you commit to an action where this Physical Range matters, for example moving into contact with something or making a ranged attack of some sort you determine the True Range and use that, the True Range is calculated as follows:

[code}
True Range = Physical Range + x"

Where x" depends on the Physical Range thus:

Physical Range x
0-12" -3+1d6
12"-24" -6+2d6
24"-36" -9+3d6
and so on
[/code]

This provides for a variation of -2 to +3 inches out to 12" range.

In practice if you are well within range this matters not in the slightest, but for example you have a unit of goblins with 18" range short bows, you are at a Physical Range of 17" to the target, your True Range is determined once you commit to firing as 17" - 6" + 2d6", a result of 13" - 23", you may find your goblins have misjudged the range and cannot fire, or they may actually be closer than you thought.

Same mechanic when moving into combat, if the range 'matters' it can vary, this will not be used for conventional movement (i.e. if you are moving 12" you actually move 12").

Point is that if you put them goblins 13" away from the target they will be certain of being in range, you could put them at 22" and retain the potential to still be at an Actual Range of 18" and able to fire.

For a charge if you are at a Physical Range of 10", and work out a True Range of 13", with a movement of 12", you are 1" short, so will stop physically 1" short and actually only move 9"

Essentially taking what GW have done to the charge mechanic and applied the same principle to all range measurement.

Thoughts?

This adds an extra step to determining ranges when shooting - unless you are measured to be close enough no matter what the dice say you are still in range, for charging its no different really to how WHFB handles charging, you just use the dice slightly differently.
Janco Toys - Barnsley
Milton Keynes Wargaming Society - Stony Stratford

Quicker by Tube
http://www.aleopardstail.com/

The Nick
Posts: 1457
Joined: Wed May 23, 2012 9:36 am
Anti-Spam Filter: No
Pick number 4 to enter: 4

Re: Uncertain Ranges

Postby The Nick » Mon Sep 23, 2013 11:45 am

The numbers and die-rolling method might need some working on, but that's not necessarily a bad idea.

Still, doesn't -1 after long range help to fix this up?
Sleboda wrote:POOPOOPOOP

User avatar
leopard
Posts: 2415
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 9:22 pm
Anti-Spam Filter: No
Pick number 4 to enter: 4
Location: Wolverton, Milton Keynes
Contact:

Re: Uncertain Ranges

Postby leopard » Mon Sep 23, 2013 7:52 pm

The Nick wrote:The numbers and die-rolling method might need some working on, but that's not necessarily a bad idea.

Still, doesn't -1 after long range help to fix this up?


Agree it needs to be a lot more fluid, and better explained..

Q: What do you mean by -1 after long range? If you mean as a modifier to hit the concept I have already takes something similar into account -- this is to mess about with your aiming point for ranged fire and movement distance for charging at range.

Will probably drop something in for closer ranges, i.e. perhaps ranges under 6" are never adjusted (there is only 'so wrong' you can be after all).

Skill adjustment for range is managed as all weapons are getting a dedicated skill line, e.g. a model can be BS:4/3 with a longbow but could be BS:3/2 for volley fire with that longbow, but could be exactly the same (to reflect training), the split number being short/long range -- also short range is not always half long range and the 'split' concept can easily be extended for more than two range bands if required for specialised weapons (this will be the exception).
Janco Toys - Barnsley
Milton Keynes Wargaming Society - Stony Stratford

Quicker by Tube
http://www.aleopardstail.com/

AndyONeill
Posts: 2486
Joined: Sun Aug 30, 2009 9:47 am
Anti-Spam Filter: No
Pick number 4 to enter: 4

Re: Uncertain Ranges

Postby AndyONeill » Sat Oct 05, 2013 3:22 pm

Variable charge distances are usually a skirmish sort of mechanism nowadays.
Outside the rather dusty cobwebbed ivory tower the GW studio designers inhabit.

On a real battlefield there are a load of variables beyond judging how far your unit A is from the enemy X. Judging distances would in that manner would not be done by a general.
He'd send a bloke with a message ( an aide de camp ) down to A telling them to go get enemy X.
The commander of A reads the message and works out what it means.
Now in the charge of the light brigade there was a miscommunication and they went off to get totally the wrong guns.
If you consider more details of how the light brigade actually charged then that's also relevant.
They set off at a bit of a trot and kept that up all the way through a bunch of shooting until THEIR CO decided they were near enough and then they cranked up to a gallop.
Which is relevant why?
Well the unit's CO rather than the general ( player ) decides the details of what he's going to do.
He can still stuff things up, despite the general's best efforts.
Or he might be in charge of a bunch of eedjits riding pigs and they take a lot of organisation to get going.
Or you order some archers to shoot that unit way over there....
They look up and see someone else closer and decide that's much more dangerous to them so they better shoot that.

A lot of modern games which are "battle" sized limit the players options.
Frequently this is as part of the basic turn mechanics.
So you know that cavalry can charge far enough, you can measure that.
You don't know when you will get enough pips or the right card to get them to charge at all and you often have to make a decision between whether to charge over there or manoeuvre elsewhere.

User avatar
leopard
Posts: 2415
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 9:22 pm
Anti-Spam Filter: No
Pick number 4 to enter: 4
Location: Wolverton, Milton Keynes
Contact:

Re: Uncertain Ranges

Postby leopard » Sat Oct 05, 2013 8:59 pm

Aware of the limits of battle, especially in games with a half decent command and control system, working on my own rules -- this is one idea of several that are in there, not going fully down the 'pip' command route, but there are limits on what you can do as a player to control models within your army.

E.g. units with default behaviours that take effort to override, effort that could perhaps be better used elsewhere.

Sort of the like the concept of how knights are managed in DBM -- give them an order to do something and they will do it, but don't give them an order and they will find something to do all by themselves..

Very much thinking of this as a skirmish type game mechanic though, working from the ground up as 'one model is one individual' and seeing where that logic takes me.

Currently have a game system mostly written (just needs model stats adding to start testing it) based around individuals but with the ability to form into units to fight better than the sum of the parts (models supporting each other, enhanced morale in groups etc). This mechanic (measured range v True range) is just one of the concepts I'm putting in initially to add uncertainty to the actions. Normally will make little difference, but when you operate at the limits of range it may catch you out -- it may also provide that little bit of extra range at times, when the dice gods smile that is.
Janco Toys - Barnsley
Milton Keynes Wargaming Society - Stony Stratford

Quicker by Tube
http://www.aleopardstail.com/

AndyONeill
Posts: 2486
Joined: Sun Aug 30, 2009 9:47 am
Anti-Spam Filter: No
Pick number 4 to enter: 4

Re: Uncertain Ranges

Postby AndyONeill » Wed Oct 09, 2013 8:59 pm

Various systems have the "modes" mechanism.
Later versions of wrg 1925-50 for example.
Units have a starting mode you allocate and a default/preferred mode.
Order roll to change.
Fail or the unit leaves commamd radius and they go to their preferred mode.
Morale fail is handled by a couple of sort of special modes.
So rallying is changing mode.

I tend to think of this as more applicable to moderns than ancients.
I used toplay a lot of wrg ww2 though.

A variant is a bit like piquet.
You have a pack of cards with a mode or two on each.
Turn a card and you get to activate a unit on that mode.
Resolve.
Then optionally roll a command check and do stuff like change an order or call in artillery.
That worked reasonably well for ww2 company + level.

User avatar
leopard
Posts: 2415
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 9:22 pm
Anti-Spam Filter: No
Pick number 4 to enter: 4
Location: Wolverton, Milton Keynes
Contact:

Re: Uncertain Ranges

Postby leopard » Wed Oct 09, 2013 9:25 pm

I like that 'mode' idea, I think 'Populus' had something similar, you set a general level of aggression and without a specific order that determined what a unit did.

Still working on the C&C system for some rules I'm working on, considering all this sort of stuff
Janco Toys - Barnsley
Milton Keynes Wargaming Society - Stony Stratford

Quicker by Tube
http://www.aleopardstail.com/


Return to “The Workshop”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Baidu [Spider] and 1 guest