Alternative Stat System

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Alternative Stat System

Postby leopard » Thu May 30, 2013 2:30 pm

Warhammer – Stats Modification
A change to how characteristics are presented, with the goals of:
1. putting required information into the profile, and not a look up table
2. allowing for much greater flexibility to be introduced without the need for a lot of special rules.
I start with an example, and then an explanation.
Common Goblin, M:4/8/4+2d6, TS: 0/0, W:1, Ld:6/0
- Hand Weapon & Shield: WS: 4+/0, S: 4+, T:-2, A:1, I:2
- Shortbow: Range: 18”, BS:4+, S: 4+, T:-1, A:1

So what does this mean?
M:4/8/4+2d6 a common goblin has a Base Move of 4”, a March Move of 8” and a Charge Move of 4+2d6. If this was shown as 8/16/3d6 (s) this would be a horse, with Swiftstride indicated. The benefit is the ability to have a model such as a dwarf as 3/8/3+2d6, moving slowly, marches the same as anyone else and with the reduced Charge. without any special rules.
TS:0 A new stat Target Size, this is used as a modifier when the common goblin is attacked, the first number applies to close combat, the second to ranged attacks. This can be positive for larger easier to hit targets or negative for smaller, more nimble targets that are harder to hit.
W:1 the common goblin can take a single wound
Ld:6/0 the common goblin has a basic leadership of 6, and confers no bonus to other models, a character could be Ld:7/+1 indicating a leadership of 7 with a modifier of +1 to the models in the same unit or via Inspiring Presence etc
Other statistics depend on the equipment being carried and used, the first weapon listed is the default and used when the model is not clearly using anything else, this will be the weapon with the best defence typically.
WS: 4+/+1 the goblin will strike his foes on a 4+, and his foes gain a +0 when striking back – thus splitting a models ability to hit another and the models ability to defend into two characteristics, listed under the weapon allowing for different combinations, without the shield the goblin would be WS:4+/+1 – the shield makes the goblin harder to hit – there is no need for a “Parry Save”
S:4+ the goblin is strong enough that he has a basic roll to wound an enemy of a 4+ with the hand weapon
T:-2 an enemy striking a goblin while he is using his hand weapon and shield has a -2 against the roll to wound for the goblins light armour and shield – this is in place of the armour save which is removed, note when he uses his bow he becomes T:-1 as he cannot use the bow at the same time, again all without any special rules.
A:1 with this weapon the common goblin has a single attack
I:2 with this weapon the common goblin fights at Initiative Step:2
The short bow is similar, noting the maximum range, the basic skill to hit (4+ in this case), strength of the attack and the goblins reduced Toughness as he cannot use his shield at the same time, he also has a single attack with the short bow.

Armour saves are removed, the toughness system above covers it. Rolls to hit/to wound needing a 7+ are likely, and use the same system the game currently uses for ranged weapons, i.e. a 7 needs a 6 then a 4+, an 8 needs a 6 then a 5+ etc.

This approach considers separately how hard a model is to hit through Target Size for general bulk and the WS modifiers for how the models skill in combat alters this – so a model can be easy to hit (because its large or slow) and cancel some of this because its skilled in combat, or just very easy to hit but also highly skilled at striking its enemies (which is not possible without special “to hit” bonuses in the current system. Anything that “deflects” or parries attacks goes here
How hard a model is to hurt is based on the toughness, representing the innate ability to ignore a blow and the effects of armour – this is the models ability to absorb damage without effect.
The only “save” a model gets relates to the ward saves, armour is counted into the above.

Currently a BS:3 S:3 human shooting at a T:3 AS:5+ goblin has a 50% chance to hit, a 50% chance to wound (25%) and a 66% chance to wound (16.5% chance to kill)
Under this system a BS:4+ S:4+ human shooting at a WS:4+/0 TS:0/0, T:-2 goblin has a 50% chance to hit and a 16% chance to wound (8.3% chance to kill), if the goblin fired his bow last round (and thus isn’t using a shield) this changes to 50% chance to hit and a 33% chance to would, a 16.5% chance to kill.

The actual stats probably need adjusting but the principle works fine.
You can now have a monster that is not hard to hit (because its big), TS: +2, but hard to hurt T:-2, without altering how dangerous the monster is in return.

You also can have a model with a hand weapon, and a great weapon - who may be more dangerous with the great wepaon but easier to hit back, and less skilled with the hand weapon but faster and better able to defend.

Its also a lot easier to split "hand weapon" into different types, e.g. an axe that cannot parry as well as a sword, and may be slightly slower but better at hurting what it hits, while a sword thats better all round, perhaps a mace and a hammer as well with slightly different stats.


Naturally would be a fair old change, but avoids a lot of look ups while allowing a lot of flexibility
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Re: Alternative Stat System

Postby The Nick » Fri May 31, 2013 9:55 am

Some of these are hard rule changes.

It might serve your point better to explain the basics and separate it out from the stat line example instead of taking an example and explaining the example.

None of these are "bad" rules, btw, but they're different.
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Re: Alternative Stat System

Postby AndyONeill » Fri May 31, 2013 3:21 pm

It's a big change.
Why stop there though?
Have you considered forgetting stats for most stuff and go for a classification system instead.
DBM, Impetus etc manage to model differences between troop types.

Fast warband, heavy infantry.... light cavalry, heavy cavalry, knights etc.

Whilst you're at it, consider an element approach rather than individual figures.

The more you change a system the more players will accept it.
Small changes are resisted.
Huge changes are a different system.
You're not messing with their game, you're inventing your own.

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Re: Alternative Stat System

Postby leopard » Fri May 31, 2013 7:51 pm

AndyONeill wrote:It's a big change.
Why stop there though?
Have you considered forgetting stats for most stuff and go for a classification system instead.
DBM, Impetus etc manage to model differences between troop types.

Fast warband, heavy infantry.... light cavalry, heavy cavalry, knights etc.

Whilst you're at it, consider an element approach rather than individual figures.

The more you change a system the more players will accept it.
Small changes are resisted.
Huge changes are a different system.
You're not messing with their game, you're inventing your own.


Aware its a different game, the attraction of WHFB is less the rules which are workable but less face it not exactly perfect (any everyone disagrees in the direction to go to make them better, part of the charm actually) - the main attraction is the background.

If saw Kings of War had the history behind it and "Warhammer" was released today, would anyone play it?

Actually working on my own system, this was a random though during a break from spreadsheet hell during the day.


Agree its perhaps not very well written though.

Some of it would be minor changes though, e.g. drop Ballistic Skill as such and just put the base to hit number on the profile, minor benefits as well. The movement change is perhaps more useful - changes nothing in the core rules in any practical way but allows the distances to be adjusted later without re-writing the rulebook.


The charm of this forum is the ability to post semi random ideas like that and see what flies, and what doesn't.

This isn't part of the system I'm working on (thats in a different thread).


May re-work this into the stuff thats a minor change without changing the game in any significant way (the BS and move changes) and put the more involved stuff separately.
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Re: Alternative Stat System

Postby matthcnet » Thu Sep 03, 2015 8:42 am

Just be aware, the more you need to explain something for someone else to understand- the exponentially more difficult a game becomes when you line up all the rules and try to play a game. It also becomes exponentially longer based on number of special rules/interpretations/size of army.

I like lots of options, but I don't want them to negatively effect my gaming experience and draw gameplay out if there are simpler ways to achieve the same or similar effect.

If there's a mechanic I really like, and a system that really appeals to me but adds 50% more time to the average game. I'd rather simplify it or not implement it at all.
A typical 2400point game can go for 3+ hours. 50% is 1 hour 30 minutes +
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