Magical Resistence

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Magical Resistence

Postby leopard » Fri Dec 21, 2012 11:58 am

From the topic on alternative winds of magic.

A though occurs, Spells have an "effect", typically causing a die or dice roll test of some sort to do "something".

Currently "MR" is a ward save against potential wounds - useless against spells that do not allow ward saves (or any saves) or do not cause wounds.

How about making MR impact on the die/dice roll test itself?.

E.g. a spell causes a toughness test or you take a wound, currently MR(1) provides a 6++ ward against that wound if you fail the test, I'm proposing you would be able to +/-1 to the die for the test - i.e. resist the actual magic as opposed to the effect of it?

Most spells seem to involve rolling dice to determine "something" so this works against all of these, and some weapons - you get hit by a sword that causes a test or you die/take a wound - MR makes the test easier to pass.

This is pretty simple to impliment, reduces dice rolling and provides actual value to Magical Resistence, even at the lower levels.

Tests still auto fail as now - as they would with a higher basic stat, so Initiative tests on I:5 models with MR(1) are not effected as they still fail on a 6, but that same model with say S:3 taking a strength test is in effect S:4.

Thoughts?
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Re: Magical Resistence

Postby subversive » Sat Dec 22, 2012 12:04 am

It makes MR WAY more useful against test or die spells like dwellers. If you're already passing on a 1-3, getting a bonus -1 to the dice roll means that you're actually getting the equivalent of a 1/3 chance to save. If you're passing on a 1-4, it's a 50%. It also skews the probability on the Death sniping spells by a lot.

I would be more in favor of just allowing the 6+ ward save against any magic wound or model removal.

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Re: Magical Resistence

Postby leopard » Sat Dec 22, 2012 12:25 am

It skews the nastier magic for sure - thats sort of the point - to resist magic. Though it wouldn't help you when facing an enemy unit that had been buffed - since the spell doesn't target you or hurt you directly at all in that case.

Allowing the ward save against all magic could work, MR(1) is still useless unless you already have a ward save, but the higher levels would be useful.

Just thinking out loud really, wondering on writing my own game one of the days
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Re: Magical Resistence

Postby subversive » Sun Dec 23, 2012 2:04 am

Hey, I'd take MR1 that works against Dwellers over the nothing I get now!

But yea, the point was that MR1 would make a T3 model 1/3 resistant to Dwellers. MR2 would be 2/3. MR3 would be either completely immune, or if you capped it, no different from MR2. It just seems like a strange way to skew - making things MORE resistant than the equivalent ward save.

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Re: Magical Resistence

Postby leopard » Sun Dec 23, 2012 1:45 pm

For sure its in effect a bit more of a save - though how much depends on the profile of the model and not just a simple "you get x".

May be a tad powerful, but its not easy to give MR to all units - so the #6 spells for example have trouble hurting units with important characters in, but are very good still for hurting massed hordes.


Just thinking aloud really on a mechanism to actually make MR resist magic in some way
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Re: Magical Resistence

Postby Ganymede » Sun Dec 23, 2012 9:23 pm

Personally, I preferred the old system of handling magic resistance: adding 1-3 dice to the dispel attempt. Unfortunately, it still suffers from a pair of problems. For one, this ability is largely useless when not supported from dispel dice in the pool. Secondly, it still offers no protection against spells that don't directly target a unit.

In order to address those concerns, I'd make two changes. For one, I would shift magic resistance so that the result of the 1-3 dice rolled went to lowering the casting result as opposed to boosting the dispel result. This change would make magic resistance incredibly useful even if the defending player had no dispel dice.

The second change would be to alter how spells like Dwellers Below and Purple Sun function. What I'd do is force the casting player to place the template and dictate its path before any power dice are rolled, as opposed to doing so after the spell is successfully cast. If the template touches an enemy unit with magic resistance (or could potentially touch one, as in the case of the Purple Sun), you apply the rules for magic resistance.

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Re: Magical Resistence

Postby The Nick » Tue Dec 25, 2012 8:12 pm

Yeah, Magic Resistance is a terribly implemented stat in the game. According to the way pricing works, each point of Magic Resistance is exactly equal to a point of Ward Save. However, while Ward Saves are universally applicable (wounds from combat, shooting, enemy magic that does direct damage in the form of wounds, etc.), Magic Resistance only applies in the case where Ward Saves are already applicable and you are receiving wounds, not casualties outright. The ability for MR to combine with Ward Saves may be a factor in their similar costs, but this rarely comes up and anybody stacking Ward/MR saves to ridiculous proportions is already a prime target for NO SAVE cheese spells as it is.
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Re: Magical Resistence

Postby The Nick » Tue Dec 25, 2012 8:14 pm

subversive wrote:Hey, I'd take MR1 that works against Dwellers over the nothing I get now!

But yea, the point was that MR1 would make a T3 model 1/3 resistant to Dwellers. MR2 would be 2/3. MR3 would be either completely immune, or if you capped it, no different from MR2. It just seems like a strange way to skew - making things MORE resistant than the equivalent ward save.

I think your math is off? Also, Dwellers is against strength.
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Re: Magical Resistence

Postby subversive » Fri Dec 28, 2012 12:09 am

The Nick wrote:
subversive wrote:Hey, I'd take MR1 that works against Dwellers over the nothing I get now!

But yea, the point was that MR1 would make a T3 model 1/3 resistant to Dwellers. MR2 would be 2/3. MR3 would be either completely immune, or if you capped it, no different from MR2. It just seems like a strange way to skew - making things MORE resistant than the equivalent ward save.

I think your math is off? Also, Dwellers is against strength.

You're right on the Strength, but where is my math off?

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Re: Magical Resistence

Postby Jimmi Stender » Fri Dec 28, 2012 11:04 am

MR should works against each and every spell out there.

I would much have preferred MR to work like this:

MR1: Any spell successfully cast on the unit, is automatically dispelled on a 6+ (roll after normal dispel attempts have been made).

MR2: Any spell successfully cast on the unit, is automatically dispelled on a 5+ (roll after normal dispel attempts have been made).

MR3: Any spell successfully cast on the unit, is automatically dispelled on a 4+ (roll after normal dispel attempts have been made).

This can dispel spells cast with IF, and force the player to roll the dice for all spells (from friends and foes alike!).

That would make MR much more useful, while at the same time making it a doubleedged sword to have (e.g you ignore friendly Buff spells on a 4+, if you have MR3).

That would make much more sense, IMHO.
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Re: Magical Resistence

Postby Ganymede » Fri Dec 28, 2012 3:26 pm

Jimmi Stender wrote:MR should works against each and every spell out there.

I would much have preferred MR to work like this:

MR1: Any spell successfully cast on the unit, is automatically dispelled on a 6+ (roll after normal dispel attempts have been made).

MR2: Any spell successfully cast on the unit, is automatically dispelled on a 5+ (roll after normal dispel attempts have been made).

MR3: Any spell successfully cast on the unit, is automatically dispelled on a 4+ (roll after normal dispel attempts have been made).

This can dispel spells cast with IF, and force the player to roll the dice for all spells (from friends and does alike!).

That would make MR much more useful, while at the same time making it a doubleedged sword to have (e.g you ignore friendly Buff spells on a 4+, if you have MR3).

That would make much more sense, IMHO.


This is a decent idea, but I'd tweak the language slightly. I wouldn't dispel the spell; instead, I'd simply make the affected unit immune to the effects of the spell during that phase.

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Re: Magical Resistence

Postby leopard » Sun Dec 30, 2012 3:10 pm

Actually I like that idea a lot, thats very simple.. Vortex hits the unit? it bounces out as normal, and the unit has a single dice roll to avoid it - that fails and the spell is resolved as normal, wounds/whatever.

Best thing: this handles spells like vortexes that do not target the unit but just "are"
2nd best thing: its very simple.

Downside: you will get arguments about if an effect is magical, e.g. the comet - its summoned by magic but you could argue the effect is non magical - dirt and rocks flying about.

Solution is to rule it covers everything that happens as a result of a spell and you have a very simple mechanic to replace the way MR currently works.

It also has no effect whatsoever on buffs - as they are cast on another unit, I think this is probably right.
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Re: Magical Resistence

Postby The Nick » Fri Jan 04, 2013 9:37 am

subversive wrote:
The Nick wrote:
subversive wrote:Hey, I'd take MR1 that works against Dwellers over the nothing I get now!

But yea, the point was that MR1 would make a T3 model 1/3 resistant to Dwellers. MR2 would be 2/3. MR3 would be either completely immune, or if you capped it, no different from MR2. It just seems like a strange way to skew - making things MORE resistant than the equivalent ward save.

I think your math is off? Also, Dwellers is against strength.

You're right on the Strength, but where is my math off?


Passing on a 1-3 out of 6 is not one-third. It's half, or 50%. Passing on a 1-4 isn't half. It's 66%. 1 2 3 4 5 6. It's easier when you see it written out, because numbers are funny when you start at 1 instead of 0...halfway between 1 and 6 isn't 3, but 3.5.
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Re: Magical Resistence

Postby The Nick » Fri Jan 04, 2013 9:37 am

Jimmi Stender wrote:MR should works against each and every spell out there.

I would much have preferred MR to work like this:

MR1: Any spell successfully cast on the unit, is automatically dispelled on a 6+ (roll after normal dispel attempts have been made).

MR2: Any spell successfully cast on the unit, is automatically dispelled on a 5+ (roll after normal dispel attempts have been made).

MR3: Any spell successfully cast on the unit, is automatically dispelled on a 4+ (roll after normal dispel attempts have been made).

This can dispel spells cast with IF, and force the player to roll the dice for all spells (from friends and foes alike!).

That would make MR much more useful, while at the same time making it a doubleedged sword to have (e.g you ignore friendly Buff spells on a 4+, if you have MR3).

That would make much more sense, IMHO.

This is superb. :(
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Re: Magical Resistence

Postby leopard » Fri Jan 04, 2013 9:46 am

Big problem with stuff like a spell being cast on a unit being dispelled...

What happens when they are hit by a vortex? does the vortex get dispelled at that point? I'd say it has to (on the dice roll) but that it needs to be clear.

What happens to a vortex that hits the unit and another one at the same time? one roll? two?

Something that just grants that unit immunity is better - e.g. you get hit with the orange sun of whatsits and on a 5+ say you avoid the cheesey odour - but the vortex continues as normal - i.e. you resist the effects of the spell - not the spell itself.

Casting is not changed, the spells impacts on the table are not changed at all - the unit just gets a (single) roll before anything "happens" to it.
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Re: Magical Resistence

Postby subversive » Fri Jan 04, 2013 6:32 pm

The Nick wrote:
subversive wrote:You're right on the Strength, but where is my math off?


Passing on a 1-3 out of 6 is not one-third. It's half, or 50%. Passing on a 1-4 isn't half. It's 66%. 1 2 3 4 5 6. It's easier when you see it written out, because numbers are funny when you start at 1 instead of 0...halfway between 1 and 6 isn't 3, but 3.5.

Passing on 1-3 is the default. That happens with or without MR applied. I was referring to the benefit you get from the MR, not the total number of passes.

Passing on a 1-4 is what you get with the proposed MR1 roll modification. Of the rolls that would previously fail (4,5,6), 1/3 of those will now pass as a result of MR1. That's the benefit you get from this proposed method of applying MR.

This makes it mathematically equivalent to a 5+ ward (or 1/3). Lets say you take 6 tests. If you pass on a 1-4, you will pass 4, fail 2. If you pass on a 1-3, and have a 5+ ward, you will pass 3, fail 3, and then save 1, for 2 total fails.

This all assumes you're testing on a stat of 3.

It's easier when you see it written out because you can tell when you're talking about two completely different calculations ;)

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Re: Magical Resistence

Postby subversive » Fri Jan 04, 2013 6:39 pm

leopard wrote:Big problem with stuff like a spell being cast on a unit being dispelled...

What happens when they are hit by a vortex? does the vortex get dispelled at that point? I'd say it has to (on the dice roll) but that it needs to be clear.

What happens to a vortex that hits the unit and another one at the same time? one roll? two?

Something that just grants that unit immunity is better - e.g. you get hit with the orange sun of whatsits and on a 5+ say you avoid the cheesey odour - but the vortex continues as normal - i.e. you resist the effects of the spell - not the spell itself.

Casting is not changed, the spells impacts on the table are not changed at all - the unit just gets a (single) roll before anything "happens" to it.

This actually gets into the fluff of what it means to be affected by a spell, what it means to be resistant to magic, and is where further rules clarification/taxonomy would be very useful. So for example, would a dwarf be naturally less prone to being sucked into the warp by a swirling vortex? Being burned by fire that happens to be generated by a spell? Why are they resistant to that fire, but not the fire on a flaming sword? I think it would be really useful for GW to do a better job of categorizing spells and effects. But then they'd be Privateer Press.

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Re: Magical Resistence

Postby The Nick » Sat Jan 05, 2013 8:21 am

subversive wrote:
The Nick wrote:
subversive wrote:You're right on the Strength, but where is my math off?


Passing on a 1-3 out of 6 is not one-third. It's half, or 50%. Passing on a 1-4 isn't half. It's 66%. 1 2 3 4 5 6. It's easier when you see it written out, because numbers are funny when you start at 1 instead of 0...halfway between 1 and 6 isn't 3, but 3.5.

Passing on 1-3 is the default. That happens with or without MR applied. I was referring to the benefit you get from the MR, not the total number of passes.

Passing on a 1-4 is what you get with the proposed MR1 roll modification. Of the rolls that would previously fail (4,5,6), 1/3 of those will now pass as a result of MR1. That's the benefit you get from this proposed method of applying MR.

This makes it mathematically equivalent to a 5+ ward (or 1/3). Lets say you take 6 tests. If you pass on a 1-4, you will pass 4, fail 2. If you pass on a 1-3, and have a 5+ ward, you will pass 3, fail 3, and then save 1, for 2 total fails.

This all assumes you're testing on a stat of 3.

It's easier when you see it written out because you can tell when you're talking about two completely different calculations ;)

Ok. I see I was thinking something else. Alright! In that case, I didn't re-check the math, but I trust you were right then :)
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Re: Magical Resistence

Postby leopard » Sat Jan 05, 2013 5:58 pm

Fully see the point of "what is magic?". E.g. my mage creates a magical fireball, is that a ball of fire created by magic, or is it a ball of magical fire. MR should be a benefit to the second but not the first.

Thats probably far too deep for a tabletop game though, good in a RPG though.

"Problem" would be you know if spells noted if MR worked or not there is going to be "creep" with more and more spells noting MR doesn't work, and more and more books which note that this version of MR works on more etc.

Easier to have MR work against anything that directly hits the unit - but not stuff that indirectly hits them. E.g. the spell hurts them, MR works, the spell buffs another unit who then hurt them, MR doesn't work and call it a day.

Having it make it harder to cast the spell doesn't work, nor does a "bonus" to dispell - as you will get all sorts of games being played with that - a sort of universal save to avoid the effects works though, as there is a simple way to have it effect a single unit only while the spell hits several
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Re: Magical Resistence

Postby BigBoss89 » Fri Nov 28, 2014 2:53 pm

I agree. Magic Resistance should be paired against Spells better then the current meta.

Hopefully in 9th Ed they will remove a lot of the Augment/Hex/Test spells and apply simple Strength value spells.
Dwellers could, for example, be that you take a hit equal to the Strength of the model (E.I. a S3 model suffers a S3 hit, while
a S4 model suffers a S4 hit) which would allow for MR to take affect.


WS, Ld and I is well enough to buff/hex. But S, T and A is where the game should draw a line.

The big question for me is weather Magic Resistance should stack with Ward Saves or not.
(If not; and you have both MR and Ward, you must select either your MR value save or other Ward/Regen saves).

Bloodletters would benefit from it with balance but Phoenix Guard are already pretty powerful with their
Ward as it is. + it's easy to make characters pretty much immune to spells if combo:ed right.


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